Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hezekiah jones · 01-20-2003, 01:12 PM

Clarence Thomas is opposed to affirmative action. Figure that one out.

cheetah · 01-20-2003, 01:15 PM

godlessmath-how funny! I was Revelle, class of 1999.

I almost want to give W. points for the voucher ting, even if ti wouldn't work. Because at least he is acknowleding that something is wrong with the public school system and we need to give everyone access to equal ed. The reason I don't give him points, is because that's the same thing EVERY politician says. And vouchers sure ain't gonna solve the problem. Why give up completely on public ed? No, wait, sorry that's for another thread. Anyway, we, as a country, need to decide if money should or should not count in public education. Because right now we're half assing it. Should having more money mean you should have access to better education? Fine, then set a level of funding for all schools based on the income of the attendees and forget about the whining of poor people. If you do not agree, then we are agreeing that as citizens, we all have a stake in making sure all other citizens are educated (at the K-12 levels), not just our children, and it is alright for my money as a rich person, to educate poor children that I will never know or see. Whatever we decide, we have to go for with 100% dedication, no turning back, no whining. I hate how it is now, where each side says the other side has it too good and whines and whines and whines...

elwoodblues · 01-20-2003, 01:17 PM

Look, we can debate the merits and drawbacks of voucherization all day long, though it's not on-topic for this thread. The fact remains that it is an education plan, Bush did push it hard, and it is something different and new. It may not be your idea of a good plan for education, but it is, at the very least, a plan. You may say it is a very bad plan, but it is still a plan that would greatly affect, good or bad, the education received by kids, public and private.

cheetah · 01-20-2003, 01:30 PM

But EVERY politician has a plan, elwood! Don't you think we should be a little more discriminating than that. If not, then vote for me, cuz guess what? I have this plan. You see, what we're gonna do is collect all the socks that people have lost the pairs to over the years (don't you hate it how socks disappear in the laundry??) and we're gonna get them all in one place and give one sock to every child whereupon each child...

Hey, it's unique! And it's plan!! What more could (did) you ask for??

Loren Pechtel · 01-20-2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by cheetah
While I don't usually agree with affirmative action, I can't help but be reminded that unless everyone has an equal upbringing, it is hard to expect them to compete equally. So, it is not the black or native american's fault that s/he grew up in a family that is extremely poor/ did not have access to private prep schools (for whatever reason.

But it's not the fault of the school or employer, either--no reason for them to be saddled with the inferior individual.

What it shows is that more effort needs to be focused early on (things like Head Start), rather than pretending to fix things later on by decreeing inferior individuals to be equal. However, quotas can be done by passing a law, actually fixing the problem can't be shoved off on the private sector and therefore costs serious money.

Maybe their parents are really lazy and not trying to help their kid,

Actually, I think a lot of them don't realize the value of education and therefore don't see the need to spend the time on it. Of course the attitudue rubs off on the kids.

or maybe, like my parents, they are less poor than THEIR parents, and working hard, but still not rich enough to afford prep school, SAT courses, etc. for me),

You can do well without these. If someone is taught to learn and given access to information (ie, a library) by the time they would be taking such courses they are capable of learning on their own.

So, you decide. Is that fine, to make kids compete EQUALLY for things that they did NOT have equal opportunity to prepare for?

Don't discriminate against dwarfs in the NBA! I've got a neice that loves playing basketball and is quite unhappy about not being tall enough.

BUt, I can't help knowing that in mnay cases, the competitors start out on very unequal footing. Foorting so unequal that it might not be able to be overcome for them.

If they aren't competing on merit, it's nothing but government-ordered welfare. I sure don't want the AA guy for a doctor! (Medical school does *NOT* flunk them out--very few wash out for academic reasons. Admit inferior students and you get inferior doctors.)

I agree there is a problem, but AA is like giving painkillers as cancer treatment.

elwoodblues · 01-20-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

But EVERY politician has a plan, elwood!

Right now? Mostly, yes. Largely because Bush made it one of the topics du jour in the 2000 election. We should start another thread on this if it's to be continued, though. We're going far off topic.

Jimmy Higgins · 01-20-2003, 01:44 PM

Yeah. The topic was about Bush being against affirmative action when he is for affirmative action. Rice and Powell were put into the positions they were put into because of their race. Both are highly qualified, but it was their race that made it so. That is hypocrisy!

cheetah · 01-20-2003, 01:48 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Loren Pechtel

But it's not the fault of the school or employer, either--no reason for them to be saddled with the inferior individual.

What it shows is that more effort needs to be focused early on (things like Head Start), rather than pretending to fix things later on by decreeing inferior individuals to be equal. However, quotas can be done by passing a law, actually fixing the problem can't be shoved off on the private sector and therefore costs serious money.

Uh, yeah, that's pretty much what I said.

You can do well without these. If someone is taught to learn and given access to information (ie, a library) by the time they would be taking such courses they are capable of learning on their own.

OK, so you're in the camp that says that money should buy better resources. C'mon Loren, the LIBRARY? That hardly compares to a kaplan course for the SAT where they give you three different types of instruction to make sure it's activating all your brain centers and what not. If you want to believe that access to the library is every bit as good as private prep schools and Kaplan courses, then I am not going to be able to dissuade you. I'm sure the prep schools and Kaplan would love to hear that from you, though. Because they are sure trying real hard to show that their relatively expensive product is WORTH IT. And they have a lot of stats, in my expereince, to back it up.

Don't discriminate against dwarfs in the NBA! I've got a neice that loves playing basketball and is quite unhappy about not being tall enough.

That is so different, I am insulted that you brought it up. Being in the NBA, the premiere basketball association, is largel based on natural ability, and no one argues this. What I don't think America has decided is that education and access to "success" should be largely based on the amount of money you have OR the natural ability you have, but your drive and, probably also, your natural ability, which together make MERIT.

It's arguments like these that make arguing worthless. People give up on real debating and start making silly analogies. Please don't waste our time...

If they aren't competing on merit, it's nothing but government-ordered welfare. I sure don't want the AA guy for a doctor! (Medical school does *NOT* flunk them out--very few wash out for academic reasons. Admit inferior students and you get inferior doctors.)

Exactly. But, how can they compete on merit, when one has not had the chance to develop their skills like the other one has? It's like having a 4 year old compete on Jeopardy! with a 20 year old! It's a DISADVANTAGE and we, as a country, need to decide if we want to rectify that.

godlessmath · 01-20-2003, 01:49 PM

Okay, sorry for hijacking the thread. Yeah, affirmative action.

In any case, to be fair to Rice and Powell, nobody else on the Bush administration is qualified to do their job.

Loren Pechtel · 01-20-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by godlessmath
It only counts if the idea for fixing the public schools is actually an idea for fixing public schools. Vouchers are not. They are meant to appease the Religious Right for votes, so that Fundamentalist parents can cash in on being able to send their kids to a religious school where they won't hear about evilution.

I'm mixed on them.

As you say, the big driving force is for the religious to send their kids to schools that will brainwash them.

Also, the finances are based on a false premise. Approach the school budget differently--take the special services out of the school budget and put it in a separate budget. Presto--the cost per student in public school drops to below the private school #'s. The private schools don't need to provide all the special services for the disabled students if they accept them at all.

On the other hand, public schools suffer from the one-size-fits-all syndrome. I went to a private school for 3 1/2 years (I would have gone longer except the school didn't offer higher grades), missed 1/2 year and came back to the public system well ahead of grade level. Sending qualified students to such a school is a very good idea and vouchers would help parents afford it.

My inclination:

1) Vouchers for schools with above-average performance only.

2) Religious schools may receive vouchers only for the non-religious education they provide. 10% of class time religious? Then the voucher can pay no more than 90% of the cost.

3) Religious schools can only recieve vouchers if there are sufficient non-religious schools.

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01-20-2003, 01:12 PM	#21
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Clarence Thomas is opposed to affirmative action. Figure that one out.

01-20-2003, 01:15 PM	#22
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	godlessmath-how funny! I was Revelle, class of 1999. I almost want to give W. points for the voucher ting, even if ti wouldn't work. Because at least he is acknowleding that something is wrong with the public school system and we need to give everyone access to equal ed. The reason I don't give him points, is because that's the same thing EVERY politician says. And vouchers sure ain't gonna solve the problem. Why give up completely on public ed? No, wait, sorry that's for another thread. Anyway, we, as a country, need to decide if money should or should not count in public education. Because right now we're half assing it. Should having more money mean you should have access to better education? Fine, then set a level of funding for all schools based on the income of the attendees and forget about the whining of poor people. If you do not agree, then we are agreeing that as citizens, we all have a stake in making sure all other citizens are educated (at the K-12 levels), not just our children, and it is alright for my money as a rich person, to educate poor children that I will never know or see. Whatever we decide, we have to go for with 100% dedication, no turning back, no whining. I hate how it is now, where each side says the other side has it too good and whines and whines and whines...

01-20-2003, 01:17 PM	#23
elwoodblues Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Dunmanifestin, Discworld Posts: 4,836	Look, we can debate the merits and drawbacks of voucherization all day long, though it's not on-topic for this thread. The fact remains that it is an education plan, Bush did push it hard, and it is something different and new. It may not be your idea of a good plan for education, but it is, at the very least, a plan. You may say it is a very bad plan, but it is still a plan that would greatly affect, good or bad, the education received by kids, public and private.

01-20-2003, 01:30 PM	#24
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	But EVERY politician has a plan, elwood! Don't you think we should be a little more discriminating than that. If not, then vote for me, cuz guess what? I have this plan. You see, what we're gonna do is collect all the socks that people have lost the pairs to over the years (don't you hate it how socks disappear in the laundry??) and we're gonna get them all in one place and give one sock to every child whereupon each child... Hey, it's unique! And it's plan!! What more could (did) you ask for??

01-20-2003, 01:35 PM	#25
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Originally posted by cheetah While I don't usually agree with affirmative action, I can't help but be reminded that unless everyone has an equal upbringing, it is hard to expect them to compete equally. So, it is not the black or native american's fault that s/he grew up in a family that is extremely poor/ did not have access to private prep schools (for whatever reason. But it's not the fault of the school or employer, either--no reason for them to be saddled with the inferior individual. What it shows is that more effort needs to be focused early on (things like Head Start), rather than pretending to fix things later on by decreeing inferior individuals to be equal. However, quotas can be done by passing a law, actually fixing the problem can't be shoved off on the private sector and therefore costs serious money. Maybe their parents are really lazy and not trying to help their kid, Actually, I think a lot of them don't realize the value of education and therefore don't see the need to spend the time on it. Of course the attitudue rubs off on the kids. or maybe, like my parents, they are less poor than THEIR parents, and working hard, but still not rich enough to afford prep school, SAT courses, etc. for me), You can do well without these. If someone is taught to learn and given access to information (ie, a library) by the time they would be taking such courses they are capable of learning on their own. So, you decide. Is that fine, to make kids compete EQUALLY for things that they did NOT have equal opportunity to prepare for? Don't discriminate against dwarfs in the NBA! I've got a neice that loves playing basketball and is quite unhappy about not being tall enough. BUt, I can't help knowing that in mnay cases, the competitors start out on very unequal footing. Foorting so unequal that it might not be able to be overcome for them. If they aren't competing on merit, it's nothing but government-ordered welfare. I sure don't want the AA guy for a doctor! (Medical school does NOT flunk them out--very few wash out for academic reasons. Admit inferior students and you get inferior doctors.) I agree there is a problem, but AA is like giving painkillers as cancer treatment.

01-20-2003, 01:44 PM	#27
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	Yeah. The topic was about Bush being against affirmative action when he is for affirmative action. Rice and Powell were put into the positions they were put into because of their race. Both are highly qualified, but it was their race that made it so. That is hypocrisy!

01-20-2003, 01:48 PM	#28
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Loren Pechtel But it's not the fault of the school or employer, either--no reason for them to be saddled with the inferior individual. What it shows is that more effort needs to be focused early on (things like Head Start), rather than pretending to fix things later on by decreeing inferior individuals to be equal. However, quotas can be done by passing a law, actually fixing the problem can't be shoved off on the private sector and therefore costs serious money. Uh, yeah, that's pretty much what I said. You can do well without these. If someone is taught to learn and given access to information (ie, a library) by the time they would be taking such courses they are capable of learning on their own. OK, so you're in the camp that says that money should buy better resources. C'mon Loren, the LIBRARY? That hardly compares to a kaplan course for the SAT where they give you three different types of instruction to make sure it's activating all your brain centers and what not. If you want to believe that access to the library is every bit as good as private prep schools and Kaplan courses, then I am not going to be able to dissuade you. I'm sure the prep schools and Kaplan would love to hear that from you, though. Because they are sure trying real hard to show that their relatively expensive product is WORTH IT. And they have a lot of stats, in my expereince, to back it up. Don't discriminate against dwarfs in the NBA! I've got a neice that loves playing basketball and is quite unhappy about not being tall enough. That is so different, I am insulted that you brought it up. Being in the NBA, the premiere basketball association, is largel based on natural ability, and no one argues this. What I don't think America has decided is that education and access to "success" should be largely based on the amount of money you have OR the natural ability you have, but your drive and, probably also, your natural ability, which together make MERIT. It's arguments like these that make arguing worthless. People give up on real debating and start making silly analogies. Please don't waste our time... If they aren't competing on merit, it's nothing but government-ordered welfare. I sure don't want the AA guy for a doctor! (Medical school does NOT flunk them out--very few wash out for academic reasons. Admit inferior students and you get inferior doctors.) Exactly. But, how can they compete on merit, when one has not had the chance to develop their skills like the other one has? It's like having a 4 year old compete on Jeopardy! with a 20 year old! It's a DISADVANTAGE and we, as a country, need to decide if we want to rectify that.

01-20-2003, 01:49 PM	#29
godlessmath Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 906	Okay, sorry for hijacking the thread. Yeah, affirmative action. In any case, to be fair to Rice and Powell, nobody else on the Bush administration is qualified to do their job.

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