Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sabine Grant · 05-18-2003, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wade-w
If your god is omniscient, then he already knows who will and who will not believe. Thus, the outcome is predetermined. Therefore there is no true choice involved.

bonjour Wade... not to play with semantics but are we using the word predestination from the notion of " destiny" or " destination"?
I disagree with you as to whom the choice belongs to. Having foreknowledge of the future does not imply direct interference with the thoughts of an individual who makes the choice.
If God were to control those thoughts in the choice process, why would the Gospel message need to be preached to all nations?

SteveD · 05-18-2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Sabine Grant

Quote:

Having foreknowledge of the future does not imply direct interference with the thoughts of an individual who makes the choice.

I'll try again. Since we seem to be having some semantical difficulty with the word predestination.

If god knows the choices that will be made then they cannot be otherwise. These choices are predetermined whether god directly influences them or not. What's going to happen is what's going to happen and there is nothing we can do to change it. Any sense of free will is entirely illusory.

Steve

Sabine Grant · 05-18-2003, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveD
Originally posted by Sabine Grant

I'll try again. Since we seem to be having some semantical difficulty with the word predestination.

If god knows the choices that will be made then they cannot be otherwise. These coices are predetermined whether god directly influences them or not. What's going to happen is what's going to happen and there is nothing we can do to change it. Any sense of free will is entirely illusory.

Steve

Which definition of free will are you dwelling on? mine is that I have the choice to say yes or no.

SteveD · 05-18-2003, 12:58 PM

It seems to me that if your choice is already known then you don't actually have a choice. It will be what it will be.

Steve

Sabine Grant · 05-18-2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveD
It seems to me that if your choice is already known then you don't actually have a choice. It will be what it will be.

Steve

What do you consider the meaning of the word " choice " is?

Rational BAC · 05-18-2003, 01:18 PM

Sabine has turned up a hornet's nest here.

And she is not even a Calvinist.---------

Wish I could help her, but I can't. Us Cherry Pickers do not worry extensively about such things.

I still think pre-destination is a non issue. I have run into almost no one who really believes, as a Christian, in pre-destination.

Non-theists get all balled up about this. Not me. And not most all Christians.

SimplyAtheistic · 05-18-2003, 01:20 PM

I think people are getting mixed up on the point I was trying to get across. The predestination I am talking about is god planning our lives, not merely knowing about them. In the bible (dont have exact verse) it states that "The lord your god has a plan" or something to that effect, and it says god hardens the hearts of some to reject christianity. That is DIRECT interference. Some people state that since god may have known the future there is no free will, I find that to be wrong. Knowing the choice someone will make doesen't take away their power to make that decision, because in their world the choice hasn't been made and it is completely up to them. Anyways, the predestination I think we should be focusing on is the plan of god and direct execution, not merely knowledge.
Jake

Sabine Grant · 05-18-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Sabine has turned up a hornet's nest here.

And she is not even a Calvinist.---------

Wish I could help her, but I can't. Us Cherry Pickers do not worry extensively about such things.

I still think pre-destination is a non issue.

no the grenouille is not a calvinist... the Op made it clear that it took the meaning of predestination " as in destiny". So I am trying for all of us to dwell on what meaning the OP gave to predestination.
For example fatalism is clear in Islam... Allah makes the choices no matter what. ( Inch' Allah! and mektoub...) I disagree that the verses in Romans I quoted reflect the notion that God plans people's lives . That was claimed in a previous post that " there are many examples in the Bible of God planning people's lives". I yet have to see the verses I requested to confirm that claim.

So yes let us discuss the meaning of the word " choice". And do not be concerned that I may be stung by the hornets.....the anti dote is always near by.

Sabine Grant · 05-18-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JakeJohnson
I think people are getting mixed up on the point I was trying to get across. The predestination I am talking about is god planning our lives, not merely knowing about them. In the bible (dont have exact verse) it states that "The lord your god has a plan" or something to that effect, and it says god hardens the hearts of some to reject christianity. That is DIRECT interference. Some people state that since god may have known the future there is no free will, I find that to be wrong. Knowing the choice someone will make doesen't take away their power to make that decision, because in their world the choice hasn't been made and it is completely up to them. Anyways, the predestination I think we should be focusing on is the plan of god and direct execution, not merely knowledge.
Jake

Are you referring to God's plan of salvation? which then includes the need for a redeemer equaly as rigtheous as God may be? In that sense yes God offers an alternative to mankind.... but the acceptance of the alternative He offers thru His Plan to reconcile mankind with Him is up to mankind.
One notion that is often left out from His plan to redeem mankind is that He did it because " God so loved the world". In other words, God's intent there is to provide proof of His love to mankind. How do we respond to an act of love towards us? are we forced to accept it? or do we allow ourselves to be moved by our own need to be loved?
How can God be planning people's lives if their love response to God depends on their ability to be moved by His own act of Love?
God being foreknowing of people's needs....of our natural tendency to be validated and appreciated thru love... how does that make God one who plans people's lives?

AJ113 · 05-18-2003, 01:42 PM

Sabine
If it is conceded for the sake of discussion that god simply "knows" the choices that we are going to make in our lives, as opposed to being actively involved in programming those choices, doesn't the fact that he "knows" eliminate any need to bother with life on this earth?

Why doesn't he quit wasting time, cut out the middle man and send us all to heaven/hell for eternity, seeing as he knows exactly what we are all going to do?

To summarise; if he knows everything that we're going to do, what's the point in anything? Why bother? What could there possibly be to gain?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-18-2003, 12:58 PM	#34
SteveD Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 118	It seems to me that if your choice is already known then you don't actually have a choice. It will be what it will be. Steve

05-18-2003, 01:18 PM	#36
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Sabine has turned up a hornet's nest here. And she is not even a Calvinist.--------- Wish I could help her, but I can't. Us Cherry Pickers do not worry extensively about such things. I still think pre-destination is a non issue. I have run into almost no one who really believes, as a Christian, in pre-destination. Non-theists get all balled up about this. Not me. And not most all Christians.

05-18-2003, 01:20 PM	#37
SimplyAtheistic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Posts: 503	I think people are getting mixed up on the point I was trying to get across. The predestination I am talking about is god planning our lives, not merely knowing about them. In the bible (dont have exact verse) it states that "The lord your god has a plan" or something to that effect, and it says god hardens the hearts of some to reject christianity. That is DIRECT interference. Some people state that since god may have known the future there is no free will, I find that to be wrong. Knowing the choice someone will make doesen't take away their power to make that decision, because in their world the choice hasn't been made and it is completely up to them. Anyways, the predestination I think we should be focusing on is the plan of god and direct execution, not merely knowledge. Jake

05-18-2003, 01:42 PM	#40
AJ113 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hull UK Posts: 854	Sabine If it is conceded for the sake of discussion that god simply "knows" the choices that we are going to make in our lives, as opposed to being actively involved in programming those choices, doesn't the fact that he "knows" eliminate any need to bother with life on this earth? Why doesn't he quit wasting time, cut out the middle man and send us all to heaven/hell for eternity, seeing as he knows exactly what we are all going to do? To summarise; if he knows everything that we're going to do, what's the point in anything? Why bother? What could there possibly be to gain?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.