NOGO

Nonesense. I am willing to believe as many extraordinary truths about Christianity as you are willing to believe about other religions.
The fact is that you are as much a skeptic toward other religions as I am toward all religions.
So we only differ by ONE.
I am skeptic toward ALL religions.
You are skeptic toward ALL-1 religions.

Tricks and more tricks. Why have you stated it in the negative?
"I believe that God does not exist" rather than
"I do not believe that God exists"

You are trying to shift the claim and burden of proof away from yourself.
The claim that God exists is yours not the skeptics.

To see that this is so try reversing any other extraordinary claim.
Example "I believe that Pegasus does not exist".
What evidence do you have for that. None.

The fact is that he who claims has the burden of proof.

Let me change your statement around and see where it leads us.

"Most of the world believes that it is not an extraordinary claim to say
"I believe that God exists"

So you are saying that belief in God does not require much evidence.
If that is so then most of the world does not understand what an extraordinary claim is.

Question:
What is sufficient evidence for the existance of God according to you, Polycarp?

Let us be clear here ... we are talking about the Christian God.

Most NT scholars believe that Jesus existed.
Most NT scholars are Christians.
Some non-christian scholars believe that Jesus existed but they talk about an ordinary man.

This last position and the Jesus-myth position is all the same to you so why even bring it up. For me the "Jesus-myth" position is at least as believable as the "Jesus-ordinary man" position.

I think that it is intellectually dishonest to claim that most scholars believe that Jesus existed without qualifying the statement as I have. Most believers who hear such a statement get the wrong impression.

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO: The “Jesus-myth” issue is a case in point. Have you ever wondered why, among non-Christian historians of the last 100 years, more than 99% of them have believed in the existence of Jesus, but among skeptics here at the SecWeb it is a much lower ratio. There’s something going on here (I’m generalizing, and realize there are exceptions), and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. It’s not skepticism, it’s hyper-skepticism bordering on total epistemological agnosticism.

NOGO,

I've tried to have conversations with you, but you repeatedly only read what you want to believe. I won’t be replying to you. You talk about me being intellectually dishonest? Read what I actually wrote. I qualified my statement to say "non-Christian historians”. You continually misrepresent my positions and I’m not going to waste any more of my time in discussions with you. Here’s what I said:

“The “Jesus-myth” issue is a case in point. Have you ever wondered why, among non-Christian historians of the last 100 years, more than 99% of them have believed in the existence of Jesus, but among skeptics here at the SecWeb it is a much lower ratio. There’s something going on here (I’m generalizing, and realize there are exceptions), and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. It’s not skepticism, it’s hyper-skepticism bordering on total epistemological agnosticism”

Feel free to have the last word, but it’s clear to me that you have no interest in even trying to understand a Christian who doesn’t hold the same beliefs as your preconceived notions of what Christians believe.

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan: I love the way you guys always bring this up when arguments start to go the wrong way for you. When you make remarks like this, it's a sure sign you've lost the argument.

Are you conceding the truth of the statement or just avoiding my point?

Quote:

I'll buy this, as soon as any believer puts up a credible methodology for extracting truth from fiction in the 35 or so gospels. But that's the one crucial thing NT scholars entirely lack, isn't it?

Hello? Are you reading what you want to read, too? I was speaking of the existence of Jesus, not of his words or actions. Now who's trying to change the subject?

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron: He's learned too much about special pleading from Nomad and Layman to ever "get it".

Hey, I resent that! I'm the one who taught Nomad and Layman the art of special pleading.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Polycarp ]</p>

Vorkosigan

Are you conceding the truth of the statement or just avoiding my point?

No, I was laughing at the way you brought up Jesus-mythers out of the blue like that. It's something you guys always trundle out when you feel yourselves going over the edge of the precipice.

Hello? Are you reading what you want to read, too? I was speaking of the existence of Jesus, not of his words or actions. Now who's trying to change the subject?

Who's Jesus? The gospels are composites, I do not know which of the figures they've dragged in is "the real Jesus" any more than scholars can tell which of the many bandits Robin Hood was based on is "the real Robin Hood," and neither do you.

Vorkosigan

wdog

polycarp,

I have been hanging around here for about a year and i have never run into many people who claim that jesus the man didn't exist historically. I would dare say that the consensus among infidels is that he did exist, but he wasn't a supernatural 'son-of-a-god', he was just a man like the rest of us.

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by bd-from-kg: No. I’m saying that the idea that belief in Christianity is remotely close to being rationally justified by the available evidence is insane. Of course, those who hold this insane belief may be otherwise sane. But there’s no telling when this sort of belief might lead them to do something obviously crazy, like flying airplanes into tall buildings. By the way, it won’t do to get too offended at the suggestion that the idea that belief in Christianity can be rationally justified is insane. Christians believe far worse things than that about non-Christians. They believe that we reject Goodness, Mercy, Justice and Love Incarnate out of pure pridefulness. They believe that, unless we mend our ways, we will deserve to be tormented horribly for all eternity, so wicked are we. So let’s not get into a shouting match about whose beliefs about the other are the more insulting.

This exemplifies exactly why I avoided this place for awhile. You view people who believe in rationally justified Christian beliefs as “insane” and as possibly leading them to fly airplanes into tall buildings.

You then try to justify your “Christians are potential terrorists”-scare tactic by taking the view of some Christians and attempting to wield it as a weapon against me, despite the fact that I do not even believe the view as you presented it.

For the record, I believe atheism and agnosticism are rationally justifiable belief systems. I also happen to believe Christianity is a rationally justifiable belief system. All belief systems have weaknesses and strengths. When I examine all of the available evidence from a philosophical, moral, historical, and experiential perspective I conclude that Christianity most likely mirrors the closest approximation to truth of all belief systems.

It’s become quite clear to me that the majority of the people here do not share my view that a belief system other than our own may be correct, or even rationally justifiable. Therefore, it’s in everyone’s best interest if I don’t waste anyone else’s time on these boards. I’ve had a lot of fun here and met some great people. Right now, I have no plans to post here in the future. Luckily, this will give me more time to concentrate on my studies.

Take care!

wdog

Having attended church for many years i can also tell you that there is no self-consistent view of the christian god among christians themselves. To take a simple example, I remember a big discussion among some people at a pentacostal church about whether or not god cared about the outcome of an upcoming football game. Nobody could agree and the bible certainly does not cover every situation like that.

More generally people were always confused about what exactly was the role of god, or his character, in their everyday lives. Did he control certain events or were the people themselves in charge? Would he be angry or content with certain decisions? Is was kind of amusing to watch.

Just ask a bunch of people to descibe god and you'll get as many different answers.

wdog

but Tim McVeigh (sp?) was a christian I believe.

Vorkosigan

This exemplifies exactly why I avoided this place for awhile. You view people who believe in rationally justified Christian beliefs as “insane” and as possibly leading them to fly airplanes into tall buildings.

<a href="http://www.nandotimes.com/nation/story/325485p-2751220c.html" target="_blank">Christian terrorist drives truck into Fla Mosque</a>

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/25/atlanta.bomb.folo/" target="_blank">Army of God Claims Responsibility for Bomb</a>

I'll stop. But many more could be dredged up.

You then try to justify your “Christians are potential terrorists”-scare tactic by taking the view of some Christians and attempting to wield it as a weapon against me, despite the fact that I do not even believe the view as you presented it.

Of course you don't. Good people are found in every religion, since being good has little to do with religious belief. But we note that of the world's major religions, some are violent and some are not. Why is this? What makes Christianity so violent, and Buddhism so peaceful?

For the record, I believe atheism and agnosticism are rationally justifiable belief systems.

Thank you. But atheism and agnosticism are not belief systems, but beliefs.

I also happen to believe Christianity is a rationally justifiable belief system.

Not even Christians believe that, or what is the purpose of faith?

All belief systems have weaknesses and strengths. When I examine all of the available evidence from a philosophical, moral, historical, and experiential perspective I conclude that Christianity most likely mirrors the closest approximation to truth of all belief systems.

You wouldn't be saying that if you'd been raised in Saudi Arabia or China.

It’s become quite clear to me that the majority of the people here do not share my view that a belief system other than our own may be correct, or even rationally justifiable.

We do not even share your view that atheism is a belief system.

Therefore, it’s in everyone’s best interest if I don’t waste anyone else’s time on these boards. I’ve had a lot of fun here and met some great people. Right now, I have no plans to post here in the future. Luckily, this will give me more time to concentrate on my studies.

Good luck! See you around. I'll miss you -- do keep us posted on wedding plans, etc, and if you travel to Taiwan...

Vorkosigan