Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Plebe · 10-10-2002, 11:41 AM

Sheep in the big city
I actually do believe that most xtians don't believe in God.
They make up 80% of the US population. So the people here and the whole country should behave a lot differently if they really believed that their lifes here are just an infinitesimally short span compared to the eternity they spent afterwards in paradise.I've met noone so far who behave as if he really believed in God and heaven.
------------------
Sheepinthebigcity: I think it's closer to 95% of Christians, I mean, how many do you know of who do not go to Dr's or Dentists and instead practice anointing, laying on of hands, prayer and a little wine as the solution to illness?! Also, it would be KNOWN that Christians are the source of miraculous healing and they would be going around to hospitals practicing their laying on of hands to heal and 'cast out demons' since that is their TRUE religious teaching. It would be a common occurrence for these healings to take place, in fact, there would be Christian hospitals with huge crews of practicing Christians where people would go to have this laying on of hands for healing. After all, it is their teaching that whatever is asked for in their founder's name believing would be done..
The gods have no efficacy as has been shown by skeptics of the past, one Diagoras "the Atheist" of Melos, Greek poet, (5th cent. BCE).
Threw a wooden image of a god into a fire, remarking that the deity should perform another miracle and save itself. The uproar this caused in Athens prompted Diagoras to flee for his life. "Athens outlawed him and offered a reward for his capture dead or alive. He lived out his life in Spartan territory." and surely any other gods are just as dead as Diagoras' example.
People who do not believe in the non-provable and non-disprovable have sound reason not to!

PopeInTheWoods · 10-10-2002, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
... some poeople are unwilling to step out and engage God with that small amount of Faith that is required to initially believe.

You say "small amount of faith", I say "complete rejection of rationality and empirical evidence."

How do you account for people like Dan Barker, ex-preacher, Donald Morgan, and the multitude of others who lived the faith for years, only to leave xianity when its irrationality slowly became apparent to them?

Andy

Leigh · 10-10-2002, 01:39 PM

GeoTheo,

You said,

"You choose not to follow God because you do not like the implications of coosing to follow Him.
I believe you arrived at that position in a way that has nothing to do with impirical evidencece. I think that was added later"

But my atheism (and that of many others on this board) did not develop that way. In fact, I used to believe in God (Catholic school, religious grandmother) and gradually I just stopped believing, because, well, I finally admitted that I was kidding myself. But I tried to believe for quite a while,partly because I wanted to believe that death isn't the end. In the end, I just couldn't reconcile God with reality.

NOGO · 10-10-2002, 06:06 PM

Agapeo:
Why do our children grow up to be other than we wish or would want? Why don't they listen to and follow our instructions? Why do they think they know better than us?

Jamie:
Because I'm not omnipotent or omnisicent?

It is obvious to me from some of your answers that you are above average when it comes to intelliugence. I am always astonished with the kind of explanation that many Christians will swallow.

If God exists and he created us then He had all cards in his hands. If he wanted me to beieve in Christianity then he would have done one of two things. Either he would have made the evidence much better than it is or He would have made me incapable of discerning the difference.

I hope that I have rephrased your arguement correctly.

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

agapeo · 10-10-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Jamie_L:

Quote:

agapeop: Alright. Back to your questions:

Great! I look forward to your answers.

agapeop:

Quote:

Why should you [believe]?
Well, I shouldn't. But if God were real and almighty and wanted me to believe, I would expect that I would.

Wouldn't it been simpler then for Him to just program your mind to do so? And if so would that not make you just a "robot" for God? That seems IMO what you would prefer in order to get over this obstacle.

Quote:

Are you complaining [about not creating my personality?
If I'm going to be judged for all eternity based on it, then yes, I am complaining.

Good point! However, your personality has been "created" by a number of varibles. Most of which you've chosen. For instance: Is it not within your control to be an asshole or not? (I meant no offence with that question, meaning I'm not calling you an asshole, just using it to illustrate my point).

Quote:

True! But you do have control over what program you watch.
Well, I can choose between them. But I don't have much say in the choices offered.

Well, that is another good point, but with all the choices you do have what's you point? Surely there are enough choices to satisfy your tastes.

Quote:

Have you ever seen the picture that shows how different we can perceive things? It's the picture where to one person the woman looks like a high-society Lady and to another person it looks like an old hag.
Okay. Now, if the person who drew the picture claimed to want everyone to see a picture of a high-society lady, wouldn't you wonder why he made a picture that some people think looks like a hag? Especially if he's an omnipotent artist?

Perhaps you misunderstand the point of the drawing. The "artist" is drawing from his perspective. The artist could have been drawing a high-society Lady from the get-go. You the observer may see a hag but that's how you see it. This could be due to influence from others promulgating their viewpoint among a few other possibilities. Otoh, someone else may see exactly what the artist intended to be drawn. This likewise can be due to the influence of others. In the case of the latter however they would be correct.

Quote:

Don't you know [if you are deficient]?
I don't know if other people think I'm deficient in this specific instance. Hence the question.

Does it matter?

Quote:

We're all dealt cards from the same deck.
Yeah, but some cards are high and some cards are low. Should the dealer blame me if I get low cards, especially when the dealer decided what cards to put in the deck?

Well, ya got me on that one.

Poor analogy. In poker however an ace can be used as a low card to complete a straight. But in any case the point of the analogy was that sure we're all dealt the same cards but it's up to us how to play them.

Quote:

Maybe God likes you better as an atheist.
If so, then a) I shouldn't be punished for it, and b) a whole lot of theology crubles.

You took that one a tad too serious.

Complicated issue, is it not? Should one be "punished" for the choices they make? IMO no. Should one be "punished" for the things they do? IMO yes. What I'm saying is I'm not entirely sure you will be "punished" for the choice you make but the things you do as a result of that choice. I'll leave that answer lay where it is 'cause it's another subject all it's own.

Quote:

Why do our children grow up to be other than we wish or would want? Why don't they listen to and follow our instructions? Why do they think they know better than us?
Because I'm not omnipotent or omnisicent?

I don't follow. How would you answer the questions if you were?

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: agapeo ]

PopeInTheWoods · 10-11-2002, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:
But in any case the point of the analogy was that sure we're all dealt the same cards but it's up to us how to play them.

Then your analogy is extremely suspect. Are you saying that George W. Bush was dealt the same cards as a baby girl in China whose parents drown her shortly after birth?

Andy

K · 10-11-2002, 06:57 AM

agapeo:

Do you really believe that people choose their personalities? Do you think that people who suffer from low self-esteem choose to do so? Do you reject that there is a trend showing that abusive people are more likely to have been abused when they were younger. Can we all just decide to be incredibly witty, charming, and gregarious?

agapeo · 10-11-2002, 08:07 PM

Quote:

agapeo:
Do you really believe that people choose their personalities? Do you think that people who suffer from low self-esteem choose to do so? Do you reject that there is a trend showing that abusive people are more likely to have been abused when they were younger. Can we all just decide to be incredibly witty, charming, and gregarious?

I said:

Quote:

However, your personality has been "created" by a number of variables. Most of which you've chosen.

Perhaps you need to define what you mean by “personality”? IMO a person who is an asshole is displaying his/her personality. Are you telling me that one doesn’t have a choice to be an asshole? As to your examples above: I wonder what the difference is between those who continue to have low self-esteem and those who “grow” out of it? Do you think that people who abuse others (having been abused themselves) have no choice in what they do? If that were true then all those accused of abuse should not be prosecuted for subsequently abusing others. After all they are only victims themselves, right? Can you be witty? You can try. But whether you are is somewhat dependent upon other’s viewpoints.

Can you be charming? Why couldn’t you be? Can you be gregarious? What’s stopping you?

K · 10-11-2002, 08:34 PM

agapeo:

I would contend that you have absolutely no control over your personality. It's simply a matter of the genes you were given and the inputs your brain has received.

We should still punish offenders because I believe punishment is a pragmatic preservation of society thing - not a matter of holding someone up to some absolute standard and then deciding if they freely chose to commit the crime. Like I said, I don't believe anyone freely chooses anything. But that is a long story that has been hashed out in many threads in the philosophy forum.

agapeo · 10-11-2002, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
agapeo:

I would contend that you have absolutely no control over your personality. It's simply a matter of the genes you were given and the inputs your brain has received.

We should still punish offenders because I believe punishment is a pragmatic preservation of society thing - not a matter of holding someone up to some absolute standard and then deciding if they freely chose to commit the crime. Like I said, I don't believe anyone freely chooses anything. But that is a long story that has been hashed out in many threads in the philosophy forum.

Then I suppose there's no point in re-hashing it out here. It's always nice to be absolutely certain about an issue of life, don't you agree?

10-10-2002, 06:06 PM	#34
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	Agapeo: Why do our children grow up to be other than we wish or would want? Why don't they listen to and follow our instructions? Why do they think they know better than us? Jamie: Because I'm not omnipotent or omnisicent? It is obvious to me from some of your answers that you are above average when it comes to intelliugence. I am always astonished with the kind of explanation that many Christians will swallow. If God exists and he created us then He had all cards in his hands. If he wanted me to beieve in Christianity then he would have done one of two things. Either he would have made the evidence much better than it is or He would have made me incapable of discerning the difference. I hope that I have rephrased your arguement correctly. [ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

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10-10-2002, 11:41 AM	#31
Plebe Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Contra Costa County Posts: 168	Sheep in the big city I actually do believe that most xtians don't believe in God. They make up 80% of the US population. So the people here and the whole country should behave a lot differently if they really believed that their lifes here are just an infinitesimally short span compared to the eternity they spent afterwards in paradise.I've met noone so far who behave as if he really believed in God and heaven. ------------------ Sheepinthebigcity: I think it's closer to 95% of Christians, I mean, how many do you know of who do not go to Dr's or Dentists and instead practice anointing, laying on of hands, prayer and a little wine as the solution to illness?! Also, it would be KNOWN that Christians are the source of miraculous healing and they would be going around to hospitals practicing their laying on of hands to heal and 'cast out demons' since that is their TRUE religious teaching. It would be a common occurrence for these healings to take place, in fact, there would be Christian hospitals with huge crews of practicing Christians where people would go to have this laying on of hands for healing. After all, it is their teaching that whatever is asked for in their founder's name believing would be done.. The gods have no efficacy as has been shown by skeptics of the past, one Diagoras "the Atheist" of Melos, Greek poet, (5th cent. BCE). Threw a wooden image of a god into a fire, remarking that the deity should perform another miracle and save itself. The uproar this caused in Athens prompted Diagoras to flee for his life. "Athens outlawed him and offered a reward for his capture dead or alive. He lived out his life in Spartan territory." and surely any other gods are just as dead as Diagoras' example. People who do not believe in the non-provable and non-disprovable have sound reason not to!

10-10-2002, 01:39 PM	#33
Leigh Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: England Posts: 27	GeoTheo, You said, "You choose not to follow God because you do not like the implications of coosing to follow Him. I believe you arrived at that position in a way that has nothing to do with impirical evidencece. I think that was added later" But my atheism (and that of many others on this board) did not develop that way. In fact, I used to believe in God (Catholic school, religious grandmother) and gradually I just stopped believing, because, well, I finally admitted that I was kidding myself. But I tried to believe for quite a while,partly because I wanted to believe that death isn't the end. In the end, I just couldn't reconcile God with reality.

10-11-2002, 06:57 AM	#37
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	agapeo: Do you really believe that people choose their personalities? Do you think that people who suffer from low self-esteem choose to do so? Do you reject that there is a trend showing that abusive people are more likely to have been abused when they were younger. Can we all just decide to be incredibly witty, charming, and gregarious?

10-11-2002, 08:34 PM	#39
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	agapeo: I would contend that you have absolutely no control over your personality. It's simply a matter of the genes you were given and the inputs your brain has received. We should still punish offenders because I believe punishment is a pragmatic preservation of society thing - not a matter of holding someone up to some absolute standard and then deciding if they freely chose to commit the crime. Like I said, I don't believe anyone freely chooses anything. But that is a long story that has been hashed out in many threads in the philosophy forum.

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