Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen T-B · 10-01-2002, 10:40 AM

Just found this thread: wanted to congratulate Jamie_L for his sagacious remarks.

Shake · 10-01-2002, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Well, I've noticed just from Christians who come to this board that a common theme is:
In order to be able to see the evidence for god's existence, one must first open oneself to god.

Yeah, but that's part of the problem. Many non-believers consider themselves fairly open-minded. I know I do. I just haven't seen any evidence or anything that convinces me that there's some Supreme Being watching over everything I do. It's a myth created to make people think before they act. It's like trying to force integrity onto people. You just can't do that. People are either going to do the right thing or they aren't.

Keith Russell · 10-01-2002, 12:39 PM

Greetings:

One of the hardest lessons (and I'm still learning this every day) is that theists are not rational.

Keith.

echidna · 10-01-2002, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sighhswolf:


Just out of curiosity, how do you define the central message of the NT gospels?
Wolf

Heh, fair point. Personally I find much common ground with many Christian humanists who draw heavily on the NT. Much as a Seinfeld script, any text is open to interpretation, but I think there is a strong case for the NT as being a humanist text, albeit written by several dozen different people well over a millenium ago.

HelenM · 10-04-2002, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Other Michael:

In <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/3330494.html" target="_blank">this article</a> religious pollster George Barna makes the closing statement:

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?

I find this curious, that he'd have people make a decision in whether to believe first, and then leave it up to the individual to determine if what they are believing has a factual basis.

I know that "faith" is supposed to be belief in the absence of evidence, but it just looks like putting the cart before the horse to me.

But that's probably why I'm an atheist.

cheers,
Michael

Michael, with all due respect, I think you missed his point. He doesn't say that it doesn't matter whether it's true. He's saying that the problem with American Christians is not that they don't believe in Jesus and Christianity but that they don't live any differently from people who don't profess that belief. Showing they don't take their faith seriously enough that it would alter their behavior.

I think it's confusing that he said "Americans" when he surely meant "self-professed Christians".

I expect, were you able to ask him, he'd probably clarify that he doesn't expect someone to believe and then check whether there's a reason for that belief. He really isn't discussing that; his focus is on how Christians live - according to all I've read about him. He wants them to take their faith seriously enough to live differently.

This may be my only post on this thread but I did want to say that much.

take care
Helen

never been there · 10-04-2002, 04:04 PM

Re. Jamie_L's post, Malcolm X describes something very similar in his autobiography - while he was in jail someone told him to stop eating pork. The conversion came later. I suppose the idea is that with all us sinners out there, the big guy is going to grant the gift of faith first to those who make a step in his direction.

galiel · 10-04-2002, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by echidna:
Actually there are a lot of Christian agnostics who use the Christ image as a moral ideal.

What is a "Christian agnostic"?
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Kassiana · 10-04-2002, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by galiel:


What is a "Christian agnostic"?

A really, really confused person.

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10-01-2002, 10:40 AM	#11
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Just found this thread: wanted to congratulate Jamie_L for his sagacious remarks.

10-01-2002, 12:39 PM	#13
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: One of the hardest lessons (and I'm still learning this every day) is that theists are not rational. Keith.

10-04-2002, 04:04 PM	#16
never been there Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB Posts: 2,144	Re. Jamie_L's post, Malcolm X describes something very similar in his autobiography - while he was in jail someone told him to stop eating pork. The conversion came later. I suppose the idea is that with all us sinners out there, the big guy is going to grant the gift of faith first to those who make a step in his direction.

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