Amos

But sullster, if heaven is religion specific so must hell be religion specific because heaven is opposite to hell and there in no way that Buddhist, for example, will ever enter heaven. They have their own Nirvana which is equal to heaven but is reached via a different vehicle.

From this follows that if Catholics do not want Buddhists in heaven why should we condemn them to hell? The point is that hell is a failure to "achieve" within Christendom and the failure to achieve must therefore be the failure to "work out" your own salvation in fear and trembling.

If you choose not to participate because you have not been called there is no reason to fear hell. If you are called but were not chosen you have indeed something to worry about. If you were called but not chosen you will begin to gather and accumilate good deeds to be converted into richess in heaven and these will become the filthy rags etc. In the bible this is addressed with "Lord, Lord don't you remember me? I saved so and so in your name and did all these other good things besides?" . . . And he will say "Because you are lukewarm I know you not" etc.

This means that aquired righteousness of believers is wrong and not unbelievers.

wildernesse

How dare someone try to offer you comfort in the best way they know how. No wonder the world is getting more insular. You never know who you'll offend or how. Better just to keep to yourself and try to steal their parking space at work.

--tibac

MollyMac

If referring to an afterlife of any sort is the best way they know to offer comfort to a bereaved atheist, I suggest they switch to second best or shut up altogether.

I respect the right of anyone to hold beliefs different from mine (even though I may not respect their actual beliefs). I have had occasion to express condolences to people of all religions and of no religion without either offending them or compromising my own belief that this is the only life we have. Is a simple expression of sympathy, an acknowledgement of my feelings of grief and the offer of a listening ear too much to ask without people expecting me to share in their puerile fantasies at a time like this??

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: mollymac ]</p>

sullster

AMos, Thanks for all your comforting interpretations of hell, but that is all beside the point and my point.

Let me ask you this question. I know from your writings that you believe that protestants go to hell. Alright, alright, don't give me your disertation on that one prod who may not, I know the lines well. Just stay with me on this one.

Here it is: You are at a ceremony for a dead Protestant who you just know is in hell. Are you a bastard for going and not telling his family that he is in hell? Would you go and say nice things, given that you know he is in hell? Is this not hypocracy and coyness, given your strong beliefs? How could you even be there, given your ideas?

Amos, my buddy, focus on this one and give me a personal answer, no amosdeval theology. Would you go and be nice or would you tell the TRUTH?

An inquiring mind wants to know.

sullster

Why on earth do I want the comfort of christians? People who believe that my dead atheist friend is in hell. Oh, sure, they don't say it to me, but I know what their religion teaches. I know they are lying and being insincere.

I could only accept the condolences of those who do not believe such nihilistic theology. True, some of them may be insincere, but they are not covering up what they believe has happened to my friend.

An insincere atheist is just that. A lying christian is a smiling accomplice to a system of hatred and revenge, otherwise know as-hell.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: sullster ]</p>

Gregg

Sullster, I don't know where you're getting this idea that a Christian *must* believe in hell or else he's not really a Christian. I mean, where do you go to find out what Christianity "really" teaches? It's an entirely subjective belief system. The people who wrote the gospels and the letters of the New Testament all believed different things. The people who collected all the writings and decided which ones were "inspired" didn't even remember what the early Christians really believed (they didn't believe that Jesus was a real human being, for one thing). Christians in Europe only came to an "agreement" on what they believed when the Roman church, backed by the power of the state, stomped out all the "heresies" and imposed its own creed on everyone else. And the minute Rome's power slipped just a little, up rose Protestantism and Christianity splintered into hundreds of squabbling sects again.

The fact is a Christian can pretty much believe whatever s/he wants as long as it has Jesus and/or Christ somewhere in it. The Catholics and fundies may not agree, but they really don't have any more right to define what Christianity is than anybody else.

Amos

Sullster, I would weep with the family and assure them that he is all right now and that all pain and sorrow is gone.

You see, when we get burried its over and we're going to go no place except 6' down and into the ground (where I live anyway).

Heaven and hell exist between the first and the second death and the second death is our physical death and that includes the death of our own soul.

PS. I had made that clear before.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Opera Nut

ONE SUGGESTION TO STOP THE NONSENSE:
If a preacher at a funeral says that a)the guest of honor went to hell and /or b)that the entire congregation assembled is going to hell if they don't accept J.H.C., or is already condemned to hell, the audience should drag said preacher down the aisle by the heels, take him outside and beat the shit out of him (most probably an all day job) like that bunch did recently at some redneck funeral in Alabama.

That might slow them down a bit.

And if someone comes up to you personally, as a relative of the deceased, and tells you they are going to hell, you immediately holler, "OUT OF MY SIGHT!! NOW!!"

sullster

Gregg.
We all have our experiences and interpretations but there is punishment and hell in all sects of christianity. Some sects don't trot it out all the time but it is there. All devout christians of any sect would believe an avowed atheist was in hell. Period.

sullster

Sorry Amos, That line is just too funny. Read it closer and you will see what I mean.