Freethought & Rationalism Archive

05-03-2003, 05:31 AM

Greetings all,

Determining how many versions exist of the Jesus story depends on what makes a version, as Peter points out.

A Maximal List

A list could be made based on all the Gospels or documents about Jesus which give a different version of events, or have events or sayings not found in other documents. This list is clearly too large as many of these seperate (often fragmentary) documents could still be from the same "version".

* G.Mark - short
* G.Mark - long
* G.Matthew
* G.Luke
* G.John
* G.Thomas
* P.Egerton2
* Marcion's Gospel
* Sophia of Jesus Christ
* G.Peter
* Pistis Sophia
* Secret G.Mark
* G.Egyptians
* G.Hebrews
* G.Ebionites
* G.Nazoreans
* G.Mary
* Dialogue of the Saviour
* G.Saviour
* Infancy G.James
* Infancy G.Thomas
* G.Truth
* G.Philip
* G.Pseudo Matthew
* Arabic Infancy G.
* Arundel 404 (Liber de Infantia Salvatoris)
* The History of Joseph the Carpenter
* Armenian Infancy G.
* G.Gamaliel (Lament of Mary)
* Coptic episodes of the Ministry and Passion
* Acts of Pilate & Christ's Descent into Hell
* Narrative of Joseph of Arimathea

And possibly:
* G.Matthias, * Preaching of Peter, * G.Judas, * G.Eve, * G.Apelles, * G.Cerinthus, * G.Valentinus, * G.Andrew

A Minimal List

A minimal list might be made by classifying these documents into distinct groups, perhaps somewhat like so:
* Synoptics
* G.John
* Sayings Gospels
* Gnostic Jesus
* Doketic Jesus
* Infancy Gospels
* Apocyphal Syrian/Armenian
* Later apocrypha

I don't know of anyone who has made a detailed study in this way.

Conclusion

The number of versions of the Jesus story is probably somewhere from 1/2 dozen to a couple of dozen.

This places Jesus towards the high end of the list.

So,
If proliferation of multiple versions is the sign of a myth, then Jesus would appear to be a myth.

Iasion

joedad · 05-03-2003, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Peter Kirby:
I am trying to evaluate the argument that a story that has no truth to it will be recorded in multiple versions. As part of that, I am trying to determine what it means exactly for a story to have 'multiple versions', particularly how Metacrock would define that because it is his argument.

Maybe looking at something actual and physical, the existence of which is not questioned, but that also has legendary literary value, would be helpful.

for example, juxtapose Peter's list with:

the atom

the elements

life

elephant

white man

Stephen Ambrose in Undaunted Courage:

Quote:

So insistent was Clark that he had determined, rather than Lewis's having consented, that years later, in editing the journals for publication, Clark had "I determined" substituted for Lewis's "he insisted."

As a dispute, that wasn't much, more a disagreement over the right word to describe the decision-making process than a fight over the question of who was in command. For Virginians, taught rank-consciousness from birth, sensitive to the slightest slight, concern about rank, status and position was as much a part of life as breathing. Lewis's journal description of this little incident is written on an unspoken, probably unconscious, assumption: that he could order Clark to stay with the canoes while he took the scouts to look for Indians. Clark disagreed: in his view, this was a case of "I determined" rather than "you allowed."

There is a hint in the decision that the captains thought Clark was the better at approaching and dealing with Indians, but just a hint. The makeup of Clark's party is puzzling. Why did Charbonneau have to ask to come along, and why didn't Clark bring Sacagawea? The captains had brought her all this way so that she could be the contact person with the Shoshones.

Instead, Clark was proposing to approach them with three other armed men, none of them proficient with the sign language (Drouillard was camped upriver a few miles that night; he had been hunting). The only Shoshone words Clark knew he had been taught by Sacagawea. He had asked he what her people's word was for "white man."

Tab-ba-bone," she replied.

Actually the Shoshones had no word for "white man," never having seen one. Scholars have guessed that tab-ba-bone might have meant "stranger" or "enemy."

Treatment of "Multiple versions" as a criterion for or against historicity isn't much use without the historicity, it would seem.

joe

Llyricist · 05-03-2003, 02:44 PM

Yes joe,

It would seem that there are as many versions of historical events as there are eyewitnesses and historians that write about them.

If the various writings about Jesus are really as harmonious as the HJ-ers seem to be claiming, That would seem to mitigate AGAINST historocity for that very reason. Unfortunately for the JM-ers, they are pointing out the very disparity that would be in line with historocity LOL. HOWEVER, the fact that myths ALSO proliferate in various versions seems to mitigate against the validity of the varying versions argument one way or the other....ie. IT IS MOOT.

05-03-2003, 05:31 AM	#11
Iasion Guest Posts: n/a	versions of Jesus story Greetings all, Determining how many versions exist of the Jesus story depends on what makes a version, as Peter points out. A Maximal List A list could be made based on all the Gospels or documents about Jesus which give a different version of events, or have events or sayings not found in other documents. This list is clearly too large as many of these seperate (often fragmentary) documents could still be from the same "version". * G.Mark - short * G.Mark - long * G.Matthew * G.Luke * G.John * G.Thomas * P.Egerton2 * Marcion's Gospel * Sophia of Jesus Christ * G.Peter * Pistis Sophia * Secret G.Mark * G.Egyptians * G.Hebrews * G.Ebionites * G.Nazoreans * G.Mary * Dialogue of the Saviour * G.Saviour * Infancy G.James * Infancy G.Thomas * G.Truth * G.Philip * G.Pseudo Matthew * Arabic Infancy G. * Arundel 404 (Liber de Infantia Salvatoris) * The History of Joseph the Carpenter * Armenian Infancy G. * G.Gamaliel (Lament of Mary) * Coptic episodes of the Ministry and Passion * Acts of Pilate & Christ's Descent into Hell * Narrative of Joseph of Arimathea And possibly: * G.Matthias, * Preaching of Peter, * G.Judas, * G.Eve, * G.Apelles, * G.Cerinthus, * G.Valentinus, * G.Andrew A Minimal List A minimal list might be made by classifying these documents into distinct groups, perhaps somewhat like so: * Synoptics * G.John * Sayings Gospels * Gnostic Jesus * Doketic Jesus * Infancy Gospels * Apocyphal Syrian/Armenian * Later apocrypha I don't know of anyone who has made a detailed study in this way. Conclusion The number of versions of the Jesus story is probably somewhere from 1/2 dozen to a couple of dozen. This places Jesus towards the high end of the list. So, If proliferation of multiple versions is the sign of a myth, then Jesus would appear to be a myth. Iasion

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05-03-2003, 02:44 PM	#13
Llyricist Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Lauderale, FL Posts: 5,390	Yes joe, It would seem that there are as many versions of historical events as there are eyewitnesses and historians that write about them. If the various writings about Jesus are really as harmonious as the HJ-ers seem to be claiming, That would seem to mitigate AGAINST historocity for that very reason. Unfortunately for the JM-ers, they are pointing out the very disparity that would be in line with historocity LOL. HOWEVER, the fact that myths ALSO proliferate in various versions seems to mitigate against the validity of the varying versions argument one way or the other....ie. IT IS MOOT.

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