4th Generation Atheist

Thanks Shven....I found that entire post a little too confusing to translate. :huh:

Meaning no offense, lulay, have you considered laying off the "sacred mushroom" part?

And no, I don't think "men" (or women) for that matter have a monopoly on saying reality is "dead". What do you mean by this? No one goes about saying reality is "dead" in the sense that there are no living things, so you must mean something on the order of presence or absence of a supernatural. On that score there are men and women on both sides; fine Infidel ladies around here who don't believe in a supernatural, and men who believe in supernatural things of all types, from Pagan men all the way across the spectrum to the Bible-thumpers, as well as people who appear to fit the mold you seem to be espousing. If you're talking about something else entirely, I apologize, but I did find that post confusing. :huh:

Jackalope

Uh lulay, if you're that worried about your liver, I'd lay off the "sacred" mushrooms. They're hepatoxic as well. Though psylocybin mushrooms are safer than the traditional amanita muscaria our ancestors messed with. Those really will destroy your liver. Before you start condemning modern medications as toxins, you'd better study up on plant toxicology a whole lot more. You might be suprised at what you learn. Good herbalists don't make stupid claims like, "Of course it's safe, it's natural." Nothing is perfectly safe, and you'd better find out what the risks and interactions are before you take something.

Cyanide is "all natural" too.

lulay

shven.....i am not saying what you think i am saying. listen...i am not saying all men are bad and all women are good. i am saying look at how mythological writers--men--have written stories that denigrate women, the feminine, and there equlizing of the feminine with 'the underword/the unconscious', etc. dont pretend that dont exist. it is writ down. so go study it, and see how you feel.

((4the generation and Jackalope))

so my post was confusing? maybe cause i brought in about dead matter and hallucinogens.

i actually have never had fly agaric. and i am not a crazed shroom eater. i have taken them, but over long periods of time sparsley. which is what ancestoes did. If we as adults wantto re-member the aliveness of Nature, and helpthe youngens learn--many who DO overdo it with drugs and including hallucinogens...many which term the errr ritual "gettin fucked", then we better learn about the history of this profound
phenomena. and it Is profound. form what i have learnt it is CENTRAL to most mythological writing either positively, negatively and/or secretly

what do i mean dead matter? do i mean 'supernatrual'. no, i dont mean super-natrual. that idea is from Eastern metaphysicans, who conjured up the idea of a 'One' that was transcendtal etc......primal anmistic peoples on the other hand didn't separate their soul form world soul, their breath from wind. ie., they didn't compartmentalize spirit into separate boxes. there was an all-pervading interelated spirit through out. not supernatrual as though there was some essence 'over' natrual

what i am on about is getting back to that. do you admit we are living in a materalistic paradigm?

mainly, mainstream science is materialsitic/physicalist, believing that mind is an epiphenomenon of complex matter/brains. thus implying that other matter is mechanical, having no inner awareness

what i am learning--and challenge this if you wish--is that matter-energy has as its in-forming essence, consciousness. ie., that matter is active intelligence.
matter-energy has extension is space. it can be measured--in principle--no matter how subtle, eg vibrations, waves and so on. that is extention in space, right?
yet, even though consciousness is ALWAYS with--the interior of matter-energy--it has NO extension in space. for how can you measure consciousness? so its not really to be imaged as inside matter-energy as one would understand a brain 'inside' a skull. yet it always is with matter-energy.`like two sides of a coin

ordinarily in the day to day life of this culture--which is based on the idea of 'dead' matter, all our institutions are based on this idea. our educational system, our myth. so this will have its effects--which is to despirit us. make us dull.....part 2 to follow

lulay

(my server cuts me off after a certain time and all my text gets binned)
continuuin. this dulling propaganda aint a new thing. it has been central to the patriarchal dogma for many many cnturies. our shit is just same in a modified disguise is all. for example, the thoecratic paradigm had us fear the 'deep'..the unconscious, ecstatic interrelationship with Nature by calling all that the "Devil".....twas the Devil that was of the Earth, and the centre of 'matter'...yeah. NOW, all that has supposedly been 'evolved' from. this is the 'scientiic age' right. so now, inSTEAd of the Devil as a warning, we are told that any ecstatic interelation with Nature is 'hallucination' or in distrssed cases "mental illness"...are you with me?

so it is like our freedom to explore reality in a deep way is constantly being barred to us via political propaganda/'myth'

THE medicine--if you will. the easiest route to exploring the Deep has always been and will always be, hallucinogens, respectfully used.

what i try and do is bring this into the arena of debate is so as to try kill the entrenched fear surrounding them. do you remember the 'reefer madness' movies of the 30s...i mean seen docus aboutthem? that was propaganda wasn;t it. as is the present drug war, where hallucinogens are put in same category as hard drugs.

but i am seeing patterns of science now struggling to understand its 'hard problem' '(subjective)' consciousness, along with the countercultural debate about hallcuinogenic drugs and things, having more incommon than some might think

i know this. when i was 15, and wouldn't have imagined joining forums and discussing shit like thas, i had LSD, and THe thing that first gave me insight was the aliveness of matter!

let me stress. i am not advocating all-the-time-tripping. that is really childishly silly. like wanting sugary sweets all the time. no, i am wanting the integration, and insight that such experience can bring.....and not 'hangin up the phone neither' and takin up meditation as a substitute. i really believe it is hallucinogenic inspiration that LOOSENS us from getting to rigid in our intellectuality. And central has to be deep respect for Nature. so it is a symbiotic relationship

Sarpedon

I believe that lulay's point about the mushrooms is that hallucinogenic experiences have always been central to religion and that this influence has been firmly denied by the Abrahamic religious establishment. As an atheist, I agree.

Though some of her ideas seem odd and bigoted, I don't think she deserves this kind of mockery.

The evidence firmly suggests that things are improving in the world, socially. In most countries, women and people of the various races are legally equal to the formerly dominant male (insert dominant race here). Inequality persists, but it is widely recognized as being bad and wrong.

All evidence suggests that human history has been a history of social and technological progress. These things are linked. Many people credit the steam engine and other devices causing the end of slavery. The gun cast down the feudal aristocracy. The birth control pill has also been called a great liberator of women.

Yet still there is a tendency (generally among the superstitious) to imagine the reverse: That at one time there existed a utopia, and there was a horrible disaster that ruined it, and the petty existence we have today pales in comparison to the lovely world that was lost. Such movements are frequently anti-technology and invariably involve some kind of scapegoat. For abrahamic religions, it was women. For lulay, it is men. For the nazis, it was the jews. For the greeks it was pandora (a woman). However, as has been pointed out at great length in other threads, there is no evidence to support ANY of these claims.

I posit that lulay's theory came about as a literary adaptation of one of the well-used religious forms: the old story of The Fall (as it is often called) In it, men replace women, women replace men, the "goddess" replaces Yahoowahoo, and a mushroom replaces the apple.

So there you have it. She believes this in spite of there being no evidence because it fits in with her pre-existing cultural background as well as her personal biases.

Shven

That in itself would be fine, until he starts trying to link it to patriarchy - he has failed to show this link but keeps trumpeting it.

As far as the point that the Abrahamic religions have firmly denied hallucinogenic experiences I say: yeah.... and?

The mockery is generally for writing very long posts of little content, claiming things without backing them up in any way and generally doing the 'I HATE MEN' feminist thing. And ilulay is a he by the way.

lenrek

I suggest you should read most of his previous post and decide for yourself. I am not suggesting anything. But, I had read most of it, and frankly, I feel he caused/brought this to himself...

4th Generation Atheist

In both of these "feminist" (I'm actually not sure I'd use that word to refer to these things) threads, I believe Sarpedon is the first to mention this.

I think that historically men have been dominant not so much due to greater average upper body strength (though that has "helped"), as there have always been a number of men and women who don't quite fit this, whether due to greater athletic talent and activity or conversely due to disability. However, I do think there's a point to be made about male dominance and the fact that historically during a woman's most productive adult years, she could not be sexually active without the fear of an unwanted pregnancy, and it would difficult to impossible for her to carry a pregnancy to term while giving a significant portion of her energy to anything else. That coupled with the mechanics of the sex act making rape far easier for the male has basically given women a biologically bad deal.

But the advent of reliable birth control has put management of this process into women's hands. Some methods will prevent an unwanted pregnancy even from rape; others simply allow a heterosexual couple to have "traditional" sex without too much concern about an unplanned pregnancy. Planning her pregnancies allows a woman to govern how she divides her time, in what order she takes on the tasks of life, and so forth. This is essential to anyone with ambition in society.

Societal misogyny has historically exacerbated women's difficulties, but as the base realities change, one sees a change in societal attitudes. The women haven't achieved this by contemplating their navels, though; they went out and fought to get the vote, the right to own land and money, the right to use birth control when it became available, protection from workplace discrimination, and all the things that I would tend to put under the label "feminist". (And BTW, using the term "feminist" to mean someone who supports these things means that many, if not most, modern Western men are feminists also). The fight for these things continues in many parts of the world, and other details such as child care are still not worked out in the countries that do have these things. What is more, there is an assault on a few of these rights going on in some places now; it would appear that someone who is concerned about the rights of women, whether male or female, would put his/her efforts toward this problem.

Frankly, if people are getting drunk and passing out in the street, I consider that bad news whether they are men or women. But I don't see how that's a necessary result of women having careers.

truthie

Good grief,

It is just me but Lulay's posts seem to cling on a blend of Femnazism and victimization complex.

Lulay, can you separate prejudices from facts?
So, at least people can engage into a clear argument....

T.

lulay

shven shven...if you find my posts so friggin borin, why oh who are you clinging to them? are you on a mission is that it. what also is so great about what you say...i have read and ...not that impressed
now, others are also beginning like you to be getting little bit to rude for my liking . i am in no way frigthened of flame wars if thats how you want to play it. or making discourteous remarks. but i like to know what the rules are here. for much less i have been told off like a kid. so carry on, but if you do, i will want to know how far i can go too.

now. calm down. get off your high horse, and the trip you have with me. i am going away for a while, and i do hope that when --if i come back there can be a little respect from you and some others

comprendi?

btw...i aint woman, i is a gay male. not that being thought a woman is wrong. i just dont want to mislead you

my style may seem a bit odd you some of you, but that doesn't excuse you being rude about and to me....ok? is this clear? or do you want to go into it with a moderator or adminstrator
?