Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SignOfTheCross · 07-22-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Autonemesis
Indeed. Stop proselytizing, and we'll have no cause to mention God's Most Embarrasing Moments.

But then you complain when we don't bring it up.

Peace,
SOTC

Autonemesis · 07-22-2003, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
It seems that the removal of the word "denial" from the definition of atheism is to remove themselves from guilt should, speaking hypothetically, the Christian God exist.

You are flat wrong. Don't tell me what is in my own mind, that pisses me the fuck off and starts a pissing war. This is the tactic favored by those who do not have a leg to stand on. Stop it.

Quote:

I may be wrong on this matter, other factors may have determined the change, of which have been addressed in this post.

You are trying to rationalize why people don't agree with your brilliant reasoning. Hint: it ain't brilliant, that's why.

Quote:

You assume I assume what you said I assume, of which I do not assume.

How else am I to interpret your insistence that atheists fear punishment from a non-existent punisher? I don't fear damnation, because I don't believe in any damner. So knock it off with this "secret fear" theory of yours, it is little more than a slightly veiled insult, and I wish you would stop it.

Mageth · 07-22-2003, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inconnu
Is a baby born atheist?

Instead of saying we are born atheists, I think it's more correct to say we are born atheistic. But in either case, it's really not much of an argument.

Autonemesis · 07-22-2003, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
But then you complain when we don't bring it up.

Peace,
SOTC

No, I don't. Try me.

Mageth · 07-22-2003, 08:55 AM

SotC:

86% of the entire world can profess belief in a deity without objective proof, so why is it so difficult for you?

The answer is in the question.

We worship God by faith, evidence nullifies faith, therefore faith is without evidence.
...
I think He's provided us with all the evidence we need, or at least 86% of the world believe that.

Huh? So I guess your faith, as well as the faith of "86% of the world", has been nullified? So then why do you "worship God by faith"?

(BTW, that 86% includes people of all religions, not just Christianity, including many that don't ascribe to the "faith" doctrine you do, and even some which are atheistic religions.)

Besides, an ordered universe could be evidence for intelligent design, of course, you would reject this, but it is an arguement none the less.

An ordered universe is evidence of an ordered universe, nothing more. To even consider intelligent design, you have to establish the existence of a designer capable of designing and implementing ordered universes, and then establish that that designer designed and implemented this universe.

Wayne Delia · 07-22-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inconnu
That brings up some interesting perspectives on the christian nativity.

You betcha. I think the author of the Gospel of John tried to cover it with an ad-hoc explanation, that Jesus was around the cosmos along with God since the beginning of creation. Unfortunately, that implied that baby Jesus knew all about God, heaven, hell, etc. since the time He was born. Several of the apocryphical Gospels took it much farther: evidently, according to Scripture too bizarre to be included in the Church canon, Jesus was talking shortly after He was born, and apparently killed a young playmate of His. I'll try to look up the reference when I get a chance. (Gospel of Thomas? Mary? Not sure exactly which one.)

WMD

Wayne Delia · 07-22-2003, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
[B]No, a baby is not able to believe there is no God at such an early age, as a baby cannot even understand the concept of God.
[B]

Therefore, since the baby is not an atheist, he is automatically considered a theist. The exact default denomination is under debate - there is strong argument that all newborn babies are Hindu, with Presbyterian and Islam coming in a close second and third.

[/sarcasm]

WMD

Mageth · 07-22-2003, 09:18 AM

Therefore, since the baby is not an atheist, he is automatically considered a theist.

Actually, to SotC's credit, he (she?) did not say or imply that.

emotional · 07-22-2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JGL53
Wow - atheism is looking more and more like a brilliant diamond in a mountain of putrid buzzard manure.

Time and again, Matt Slick's point of contention about atheists rings true:

Quote:

from http://www.carm.org/atheism/atheistmistakes.htm

Condescension
This is the most common of all mistakes I've encountered with atheists. I've been told by atheists that I'm an idiot for believing God, that if I were truly intelligent I'd abandon my anachronistic thinking, etc. I've yet to meet a single humble atheist.

Spenser · 07-22-2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

86% of the entire world can profess belief in a deity without objective proof, so why is it so difficult for you?

This is the kind of reasoning that really irks me. The fact that a good chunk of the world is not very educated, and the majority of these uneducated masses believe highly in religions doesn't seem to be a factor when throwing forth useless statistics.

Here's one for us: Did you know that less than 1% of prison inmates in America claim to be atheists? Sounds cool but does it really prove anything?

Which rock are you running and hiding under? I thought you were Catholic? If they don't believe in your God, your way then what good are they for evidence in your argument? Some believe in multiple Gods, some believe in the Earth and some are Buddhist and some are freaky deaky Scientologists. Besides, there was a time when the majority of the known world believed that the Earth circled the sun. Guess what, they were wrong. Hmmm, didn't your church only just recently issue some apologies to some rather famous dead astronomers???

I have an idea, why not have an argument rather than a bunch of empty useless assertions... :notworthy

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07-22-2003, 08:55 AM	#55
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	SotC: 86% of the entire world can profess belief in a deity without objective proof, so why is it so difficult for you? The answer is in the question. We worship God by faith, evidence nullifies faith, therefore faith is without evidence. ... I think He's provided us with all the evidence we need, or at least 86% of the world believe that. Huh? So I guess your faith, as well as the faith of "86% of the world", has been nullified? So then why do you "worship God by faith"? (BTW, that 86% includes people of all religions, not just Christianity, including many that don't ascribe to the "faith" doctrine you do, and even some which are atheistic religions.) Besides, an ordered universe could be evidence for intelligent design, of course, you would reject this, but it is an arguement none the less. An ordered universe is evidence of an ordered universe, nothing more. To even consider intelligent design, you have to establish the existence of a designer capable of designing and implementing ordered universes, and then establish that that designer designed and implemented this universe.

07-22-2003, 09:18 AM	#58
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Therefore, since the baby is not an atheist, he is automatically considered a theist. Actually, to SotC's credit, he (she?) did not say or imply that.

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