Eudaimonist

Thanks, sighswolf, for your excellent spy report. Here is a more lighthearted one from me...

I wonder how many of you know that Mormons have a big presence on the North side of the island of Oahu in Hawaii? They run the Polynesian Cultural Center, and visitors to the Center have the option to go on a free tour of the nearby Mormon temple (a very large, showpiece temple).

I figured, what the hell? I'll go on the tour and be an atheist spy. The picture above is a Mormon Sister in front of the temple -- one of the tour guides. The guides look like they were chosen and dressed to appear as young, pretty, virginal, submissive, and fertile women. Her "easy access" Sister's dress looks like it is also easy egress (she gives the impression that she's about to give birth any moment, even though she's not pregnant). The message for men seems to be: become a Mormon and you'll get a young, pretty, submissive wife who will provide you with many Mormon rugrats.

I almost asked her how many young Mormon wives I could have for myself, but I thought better of it. (She was my ride back out of Mormon country. )

The Temple itself is an amazing work of architecture. It is large and evokes a strong feeling of mental peace, or is that mental passivity? We were taken inside for a "movie". This is a Mormon apologetic of sorts that makes Mormonism seem like some special denomination of Christianity that values Jesus and Family more than all the other denominations. We were handed little cards to fill out to request a free copy of the Book of Mormon, and to give comments. I simply noted on mine: Atheist. Liked the architecture. Damning with faint praise.

IvanK

Another view of Mormon architecture: as one drives counter-clockwise around the Washington, D.C. Beltway one gets a good view of the Temple in suburban Maryland, as well as passing under a railroad bridge nearby on which local wags from time to time have painted:

SURRENDER DOROTHY

cloudyphiz

if you look around the web, you can find a couple of sites that detail the secret rituals that mormons perform behind closed temple doors (i'm sure wolf knows all about them). of course, joseph smith stole them all from the masons but i guess that's not a big deal. except to the masons, who hate mormons for it to this day.

the funniest thing (to me) is that all of the services are lead by movies... they don't even bother to have real people in their temples anymore. if nothing else, the mormon corporation is a truly astonishing example of how easy it is to lead & bleed people with religion.

-gary

alek0

I also forgot to add that missionaries abroad are trying to attract people with free English lessons, also. Not sure whether approach works, but they still keep trying... Temples do look impressive, but some stories of recovering mormons you can find on the net (women especially) are enough to make one sick. In Germany I've met many Mormon girls as missionaries. They gave up trying to convert me after a while, but they kept coming to visit every Saturday, they'd bring cookies and I'd get some fruit juice, and they'd enjoy the opportunity to listen to non-religious music because anything else was forbidden on the mission. Their parents would send money, but money would be distributed by the church so poor gals had to be careful what they spend money on.
I felt sooooooo sorry for them. Not only because of life they led there, but also because what was waiting for them at home - marry a returned missionary, raise bunch of kids, be a good submissive wife.

Here in Hong Kong I've seen only male missionaries, and I don't feel sorry for them at all. Though for some specimens I was really tempted to try to corupt them but when I remembered that I would have to listen again about all that junk on "only true religion of Jesus Christ" I thought better of it. But those boys are really a temptation, especially compared to tiny chinese guys (average weight of male students at my Univ. is 48 kg, didn't dare to ask for females).

Vorkosigan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by alek0:
Wolf,
I am aware that they work hard to spread. Those missionaries are unbeleivable. I've seen plenty of them while I lived in Germany, and plenty of them now in Hong Kong. One has to be real fanatic to learn not only Puttonghua but also Cantonese in attempt to spread his religion

One has to be a real fanatic, period, to learn Cantonese. I can't think of a more difficult major language.

I see lots of Mormons here in Taiwan, looking nice, riding around on bikes. Mostly males. I don't know any local Mormons, though I know some local Christians. It seems that Taiwanese/Chinese are particularly vulnerable to cults in some ways, because they rarely, if ever, hear anyone tell them that they love them. On the other hand, nobody is more practical than a Chinese, which is strong incentive to blow off investment of time and money in religion.

In any case, religion which requires each young man (and some women, too) to go somewhere for 2 years as a missionary is bound to spread. Though in Germany they weren't doing that good

Do they require that of Germans, Chinese etc? Or just westerners? ever notice how few white mormons marry non-whites? The message is pretty clear to me....

Michael

alek0

Haven't seen any non-white missionaries. Here in HK I've seen only males, in Germany there were males and females (females were called sisters, and males were called elders for some reason, true gender equality indeed).

I also don't know any local mormons here, I did know some in Germany, but all of them were recent converts so I don't know whether their children in 20 years will be sent out on a mission.

Concerning Cantonese, I absolutely agree, but I don't really appreciate discouragment . I'll have to learn it if I intend to stay here

Doug

The only time I've ever been approached by a Mormon missionary was in Mainz, Germany, right in front of the Dom. He spoke to me in German, but the white shirt/black slacks get up was a dead give away. I asked him (in German) if he spoke English. He did a little and I learned he was French. I then said, "you're a Mormon, aren't you". He skirted the question and tried to start telling me about Jebus, so I stopped him and told him I was an atheist. He was polite and left me alone at that point (probably due more than anything to his poor English, my weak German and my complete ignorance of French).

sighhswolf

There is no Gender equality in Mormon doctrine,
women cannot hold the priesthood...period.
The reason you have not seen many missionaries that were non-white is very simple.
Up until 20 or so years ago, there were few black
members of the church. They were not allowed to
hold the priesthood and LDS membership did not want blacks in the church.

In the last 10 years or so the General Authorities
and the priesthood had a revelation from god
saying they should allow other races into the church and allow them to hold the priesthood
What happened as the church expanded more and more
the GA's realized that to continue this expansion they would have to allow people of "other" races
to be a viable part of the church based on the locations of Temples.
Strictly PR by the mormons.
Wolf

gopoindexter

While being the only person that I've seend living in true mormon country I believe I need to speak up. Regarding the baptism of the dead, officials claim that they have stopped the practice but they have not. A family friend just performed one a few weeks ago.

Regarding missionaries, I believe I need to quote George Carlin on this "Keep thy religion to thy self." If I am going to choose to join your religion, I would come to you myself.

Also, while being an athiest surrounded by a strictly mormon society I have learned ways to harass them when I can't stand it any more. The best I have found is to ask they a few questions. According to the faith, the Book of Mormon is the word of god. However, in Revelation 22:18 is states "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" The bible is said to be the only word of god. Therefore, either the LDS faith is completely invalid and the book of mormon is a hoax or that there is no god. I choose the latter. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

alek0

I know they haven't stopped it, according to some mormons I know now the difference is that baptism of the dead can only be requested by a relative or descendant (doesn't matter if other living relatives strongly object). That is you can request baptism for your grandmother, but you can't request baptism for Elvis (yet again!).

Arguing on baptism of the dead with mormons felt like banging my head against the wall.

Them: It isn't without consent, you can always refuse baptism.

Me: But how can I refuse it if I am dead ?!?!?!

Them: Your spirit can refuse or accept the baptism.

Me: What if there are no spirits?

Them: Then why does it matter to you?

Me: Because such ceremony would be against my specific wishes, would be against everything I beleive in, and if you couldn't get me to convert and be baptized while I was alive because I objected to it isn't it profound disrespect to do so when I am dead and cannot do anything to prevent it?

Them: But you can choose to accept baptism or not.

Me: Is there anything I can do to prevent such a ritual performed after my death?

Them: No, but you can choose not to accept it.

Me: How can I choose anything if I am dead?!?! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />