Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Waning Moon Conrad · 11-13-2002, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:
meditation is something I would like to do and it is something I have tried to do however it seems I am incapable of meditating due to the fact that I seem completely unable to quiet my thoughts...
there must be something I am missing here since I have heard so many positives from different people about meditation...

Advice from a buddhist who also needs this advice.

Don't worry about quietening your thoughts. Just watch them and let them be.

When you have a thought, perhaps you'll have another one stating the obvious, eg - Ah there goes a thought!

Look into the part of you that makes that banal observation. Keep looking it. Notice the thoughts, let them be, but look into the thinker.

Don't try to cultivate a state of utter blankness.

Amie · 11-13-2002, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Waning Moon Conrad:
Don't try to cultivate a state of utter blankness.

I think that is my problem. I try to clear my mind and I just can't seem to be able to do that...

11-13-2002, 07:44 PM

"I think that is my problem. I try to clear my mind and I just can't seem to be able to do that... "

My reply : Maybe meditation doesn't suits you ...

Should stop if you can't get any results. There should be some chance in the way your breath and relax after a while, but if this too is not available, then better stop then forcing yourself to do something you are not capable of.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]

monkey mind · 11-14-2002, 07:47 AM

The goal of meditation is not to experience sensations, perceptions and pleasures. It's also not to make your mind into a dead tree. If you do not have any thoughts or emotions at all, your probably dead.

The real benefit of meditation is subtle and invisible, it affects your whole life because it increases your minds abilities.The real goal of meditation is to increase this power of the mind, because that is the only thing that matters. Any otherworldly sensations you may experience are temporary, and can even be dangerous if they start to consume your life. People have been compelled to commit mass suicide because they were chasing after these sensations. You can in no way use these experiences to measure your meditation progress.

When you meditate, you will be more clear headed, you will have better concentration, increased learning ability, increased work efficacy, more control over your emotions and a stronger will power. These are only a few of the actual benefits of meditation.

The only benefit of otherworldly experiences during meditation is that they will make you happy and make you want to continue to practice meditation.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]

Primal · 11-15-2002, 11:16 PM

That largely depends on the sect of Buddhism, different sects see meditation is different ways.

Primal · 11-15-2002, 11:17 PM

To try and remove meditation from any spiritual context is to merely remove meditation from the Buddhist tradition.

monkey mind · 11-19-2002, 12:57 PM

Every school of Buddhism teaches that there are three ways of practice for a Buddhist. Morality (by following the precepts), Concentration (by practicing meditation) and Wisdom (reading sutras, listening to teachers, realizing things for yourself). All equally important and interrelated. Theres no reason to believe the final goal of enlightenment can be realized through meditation alone, and actually, not even the zen school teaches that.

Primal · 11-19-2002, 01:38 PM

I'd be very careful about generalizing a claim like that to all Buddhism as it comes in very different forms. Therevada Buddhism for example teaches that only monks may reach Nirvana.

11-19-2002, 03:48 PM

"I'd be very careful about generalizing a claim like that to all Buddhism as it comes in very different forms. Therevada Buddhism for example teaches that only monks may reach Nirvana. "

My reply : BS. Nirwana achieved by discplining the mind and body, NOT by joining some club with specific group of members. Only logic I see with this claim is that it maybe because Monks said to discard ALL worldly desires and follow the path of priesthood.

I don't know believe that such claim is genuine because around beginning of 1900s, several remains of warriors monks in Japan were found, apparently they managed to mummified themselves through severe practise of meditation. Mummified body in sitting position usually means that a person achieved nirwana.

monkey mind · 11-19-2002, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Primal:
I'd be very careful about generalizing a claim like that to all Buddhism as it comes in very different forms. Therevada Buddhism for example teaches that only monks may reach Nirvana.

Every school of Buddhism, including the Therevadan teaches the three practices of Morality, Meditation and Wisdom. This is the eightfold path.

Right Understanding
Right Thought
Right Behaviour
Right Speech
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

These can be grouped according to the three pillars of practice.

Morality:
Right Behaviour
RIght Speech
Right Livelihood

Meditation:
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

Wisdom:
Right Understanding
Right Thought

If a school does not teach these things, it is not Buddhism and every school of Buddhism teaches these things.

Why do you say that the Therevadan tradition teaches that only monks gain reach nirvana? The Therevadan school is based on the Pali canon. In the Pali canon there are many stories of laypeople gaining enlightenment and never becoming monks or nuns.

-Edited for spelling

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]

11-13-2002, 07:44 PM	#53
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"I think that is my problem. I try to clear my mind and I just can't seem to be able to do that... " My reply : Maybe meditation doesn't suits you ... Should stop if you can't get any results. There should be some chance in the way your breath and relax after a while, but if this too is not available, then better stop then forcing yourself to do something you are not capable of. [ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]</p>

11-14-2002, 07:47 AM	#54
monkey mind Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: canada Posts: 140	The goal of meditation is not to experience sensations, perceptions and pleasures. It's also not to make your mind into a dead tree. If you do not have any thoughts or emotions at all, your probably dead. The real benefit of meditation is subtle and invisible, it affects your whole life because it increases your minds abilities.The real goal of meditation is to increase this power of the mind, because that is the only thing that matters. Any otherworldly sensations you may experience are temporary, and can even be dangerous if they start to consume your life. People have been compelled to commit mass suicide because they were chasing after these sensations. You can in no way use these experiences to measure your meditation progress. When you meditate, you will be more clear headed, you will have better concentration, increased learning ability, increased work efficacy, more control over your emotions and a stronger will power. These are only a few of the actual benefits of meditation. The only benefit of otherworldly experiences during meditation is that they will make you happy and make you want to continue to practice meditation. [ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]</p>

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11-15-2002, 11:16 PM	#55
Primal Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Marcos Posts: 551	That largely depends on the sect of Buddhism, different sects see meditation is different ways.

11-15-2002, 11:17 PM	#56
Primal Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Marcos Posts: 551	To try and remove meditation from any spiritual context is to merely remove meditation from the Buddhist tradition.

11-19-2002, 12:57 PM	#57
monkey mind Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: canada Posts: 140	Every school of Buddhism teaches that there are three ways of practice for a Buddhist. Morality (by following the precepts), Concentration (by practicing meditation) and Wisdom (reading sutras, listening to teachers, realizing things for yourself). All equally important and interrelated. Theres no reason to believe the final goal of enlightenment can be realized through meditation alone, and actually, not even the zen school teaches that.

11-19-2002, 01:38 PM	#58
Primal Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Marcos Posts: 551	I'd be very careful about generalizing a claim like that to all Buddhism as it comes in very different forms. Therevada Buddhism for example teaches that only monks may reach Nirvana.

11-19-2002, 03:48 PM	#59
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"I'd be very careful about generalizing a claim like that to all Buddhism as it comes in very different forms. Therevada Buddhism for example teaches that only monks may reach Nirvana. " My reply : BS. Nirwana achieved by discplining the mind and body, NOT by joining some club with specific group of members. Only logic I see with this claim is that it maybe because Monks said to discard ALL worldly desires and follow the path of priesthood. I don't know believe that such claim is genuine because around beginning of 1900s, several remains of warriors monks in Japan were found, apparently they managed to mummified themselves through severe practise of meditation. Mummified body in sitting position usually means that a person achieved nirwana.

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