Clutch

I didn't take TLR's point to be primarily about whether doctors or vets have to understand evolutionary theory, though clearly it's best if they do. The more socially pernicious effect is the graduating of people stamped BIOLOGIST, who haven't (eg) an understanding of the theory sufficient to immediately see the pointlessness of "irreducible complexity" as an argument against it.

As for the high school biology teachers, it just underscores the irony of the creationist complaint that children are brainwashed with evolutionary theory in public schools. Their teachers are normally so vague on the notion that they're much happier avoiding it.

MrDarwin

And if you are going to use such a quibble as an excuse to completely ignore every other specific point I made in my responses to you, what does that say about you, the quality of your arguments, or your ability to back them up?

MrDarwin

DNAUnion either missed or ignored my question, which I think is very relevant to his comments about veterinarians:

Perhaps the lack of response suggests that DNAUnion doesn't know enough about veterinary medicine to be commenting on the subject? So perhaps a question related to human medicine would be more appropriate. DNAUnion, would you feel more comfortable knowing that the doctor operating on your eye, for lack of adequate human cadavers, had practiced his techniques on the eyes (or eyespots, or whatever) of an amphioxus, of a squid, of a goat, of a baboon, or of a chimpanzee?

pangloss

As is par for the course, Rick (DNAunion) misses/ignores/tries to change the point.

It wasn't the profanity, it was the usual personal attacks.

Do others do so?

Yup.

Do others do so as a frequent first response?

Not nearly as often.

pangloss

Well, as long as you don't call me a 'flaming homo', you can be as hypocritical as you want.

I've got better things to do.

MortalWombat

[sarcasm]Well, heck, why don't we just do away with teaching all science to pre-med majors. In fact, just do away with undergraduate education all together. Just yank kids fresh out of high school and put them into an intensive all-medical-no-science program so that they can learn to be doctors right away without having to bother with crowding their brains with useless information that has nothing to do with treating patients[/sarcasm]

Do not wish to be associated w/ II

That's how it works here in the UK (sort of). We enter med school straight from High School at the age of 18. The course is five years long. Traditionally the first two years are preclinical- that is they teach the science- anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, Embryology, Behavioural sciences. Then the third through fifth years are clinical, where we dabble in the various fields of medicine- internal medicine, general surgery, paediatrics, obs and gobs, psychiatry, ophthalmology, otorhinolaryngology, geriatrics, pathology (with microbiology etc) and public health medicine. In this country it is all taught with a slant from evolutionary theory, both preclinical and clinical.

I have stumbled on the odd medical student who cannot grasp the basic tenets of evolutionary theory- usually these people also have trouble understanding other aspects of the course. With evolution as a framework much of the other stuff falls into place. Some medics are as thick as shit btw- don't let the fact that they somehow got into med school convince you they are intelligent.

Some of them think homeopathy works for example!

MortalWombat

Yes, I know that in many countries there is not a requirement for an undergraduate degree for medical school. But notice you still have basic non-medical science courses in med school as well. My tongue-in-cheek post was supposed to playfully take the argument for the non-inclusion of evolutionary biology for pre-med students to its logical conclusion.


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Oolon Colluphid

However, I think it really unlikely that anyone could get into uni for a medical degree here without a good A Level in biology (and usually chemistry). And certainly the London Board syllabus I did back in '85 had a significant chunk of evolution in it. I don't see why this should have changed.

How does it work in the States? What do you have to have studied in high school to get into med school?

Oolon

Hobbs

LOL. Ha ha! Oh, that's funny, that's a good one. Thanks for the humor. Yes, it is ridiculously far-fetched to think that physicians would not know that antibiotics are useless against viral infections, but that ridiculousness is what makes the comment so very funny.

Boy, wouldn't things be a mess if this statement weren't meant as a silly joke, and if there were physicians who really didn't know such things. We might even end up with bacterial infections that become resistant to any antibiotic we've got. ...