Garbles18

I read the first few pages of this thread and I still don't understand why Bede is insisting that Christianity is the basis for science. Let me know if I am just repeating something already said.

Christianity is based on the Bible. The Bible is not based on science, but on either some sort of revelation or simply the view of the world of those people at that time. You can argue that science has shown aspects of Christianity to be true, but that only utilizes reason, not religion.

So what if most early scientists were Christian. Did they open up the Bible to figure out if the Earth is the center of the universe or to figure out whether the universe was big or small? No, they used reason like all successful scientists throughout history. Is reason confined to only Christians or only non-Christians? No, it is a human product and has nothing to do with one's religious beliefs. Even if you believe that God gave man reason that still doesn't show that Christianity is actually the source of any science.

All these famous scientists that are being listed and the only thing I can see is that a lot of them believed in a god. So what? That means they derived their conclusions because of their religion and not because of reason?

If I'm missing something, can someone please fill me in.

Bede

Hi Garbles,

Given Christianity started before any of the NT was written, you are being rather simplicitic to say it is based on the Bible. I fear you've been listening to fundie protestants and assumed they know what they are talking about. The experiance of nearly everyone here is that they do not, although many atheists find it helpful to pretend to believe that fundies do represent mainstream Christianity.

My essay on science is <a href="http://www.bede.org.uk/sciencehistory.htm" target="_blank">here</a>. I got your PM and suggest you read my site - I expect you will find some answers there even if you do not agree with them!

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

Garbles18

I have read some of the stuff from your site, but before I go off to read more: Let's exaggerate and say that Christianity, as a religion, was around since Adam and Eve. What difference does that make whether or not someone uses reason to come to a scientific conclusion? Their reasoning still has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with searching for a truth in the world around them through evidence only.

lpetrich

And he had claimed in his defense that he did not let those bribes influence him.

lpetrich

I think that he thinks that the explanatory structure of modern science directly implies the truth of his religion.

Interesting point.

There is also the interesting problem of whether they would have gotten away with believing in some other religion. In late-medieval/early-modern times, one would have gotten in deep trouble if one believed in a sect other than what the leaders had decreed:

Cuius regio, eius religio
"Whose region, his religion"

was the order of the day back then. One had to profess the official state religion, or else one would not get very far.

So would those scientists have gotten away with being Muslims? Or neo-pagans? Protestants in Catholic areas? Catholics in Protestant areas? Kepler did not like the idea of converting to whatever was the leader's religion at the time, so he left an area that had started being officially Catholic. Newton, despite his theological preoccupations, had to keep his mouth shut about his heretical opinions.

Furthermore, science has its roots in the Greco-Roman world, and by Bede's arguments, we ought to conclude that we must become Hellenic pagans, since, by his arguments, Hellenic paganism must have been the ultimate cause of science. So when will Bede start making offerings to the Olympians? Consulting their oracles?

Bede probably thinks exactly that. Yet his mind snaps shut when he looks at their Hellenic-pagan predecessors.

lpetrich

That's a matter of definition, I suppose. It's like saying that Islam is not based on the Koran, because its prophet Mohammed had lived before the Koran was written.

But after the NT and the Koran had been written, then belief in those books had been important parts of those respective creeds.

I find it curious that Bede is willing to deny important parts of his religion, but any stick will do, I suppose.

I'd like to see Bede move to some southern-US small town and claim that most of the churches there do not represent "real Christianity". Better yet, he ought to convince some leading TV evangelists that their beliefs do not represent "real Christianity".

Bede

Ipetrich, are you deliberately misrepresenting what I say, or do you have trouble reading English like NOGO?

Christians are taught that:

a) reason is a gift from God;
b) We have a duty to explore the world he created;
c) We can use rea...

Oh sod it, I've said all this dozens of times before and always someone else pops up and starts complaining that Christianity can only mean what Southern bible thumpers say it does. Take your blinkers off and realise that 20th century Texas makes a poor model for 14th century Italy.

I would recommend reading books on the subject, but Sojourner has convinced herself that David Lindberg, a highly respected academic, is only not saying the church was anti-science because of his Christian agenda (despite the fact that neither she nor I have any evidence of what his agenda is except he doesn't agree with Sojourner's views). If she, who is more sensible than most here, cannot accept the plain meaning of a textbook when it clashes with her preconceptions, I don't see what hope you headbangers have got.

This thread died a while back, and no matter how many people ask how come Southern Baptists aided science in the Middle Ages, I will not try and bring it back to life.

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

lpetrich

I don't know what religion it is -- perhaps we ought to call it Bedianity.

In any case, Bede might enjoy reading what Martin Luther, the original Protestant, had thought of reason.

So those scriptural percussionists are not "True Christians"? Even though they believe in Jesus Christ and the absolute truth of the Bible?

Butters

Posted by Bese,
What happened? Did you get partway through and remember Sojourner's post of 11/16/02-5:35?

NOGO

Show us an official church document which teaches this.