Douglas J. Bender

RyanFire,

You are insecure and easily upset. You have serious issues you need to deal with. I'll pray for you.


In Christ,

Douglas

Autonemesis

I knew it. You couldn't resist. Liar.

You can't resist this one either. Otherwise, I have the last word. Here it comes...

Mageth

Douglas, I have a message for you:

[god]DOUGLAS BENDER - USE YOUR REASON. I GAVE IT TO YOU FOR A PURPOSE. QUIT MAKING A MOCKERY OF IT.[/god]

Now - how do you distinguish between this message and any of the other thousands of messages that you must come across daily, including bits of burned newspapers? How do you know god didn't have me type that?

Ryanfire

Douglas, if you pray for me you obviously have a desire for me to change my thoughts. So much for god's design, I guess Douglas intends on changing it. Hey god, Douglas is not happy with your work, perhaps you can talk about this with him.

Thanks god.

Love Ryan.

madmax2976

No not proof of a Creator Douglas. Obviously this would be proof of the intergalactic space aliens attempting to influence our actions by coercing us into believing the tribal God of ancient sheep herders is the one and only creator of the universe.

The most telling thing for me is that you couldn't prove that this isn't the case.

rainbow walking

Hello Rainbow Walking,

Hello again David Matthews

Rw: Excellent. You accept as true that the existence of god has not been verified to be a fact of reality. But that is not the note upon which you end this discussion as you claim “god exists” as a true statement. Obviously you hold contradictory standards for differentiating fact from fiction.

David: God is a fact beyond reality. The reality that we know and understand is purely physical and altogether transitory, God is neither physical nor transitory.

Rw: God is a fact beyond reality? Hmmm…that’s a revealing statement David. I was wondering how long it would take to lure you out from under the rocks of unsupported assertion into the bright crisp air of Fantasia.

I just have a few questions.

Did your deity come to you with these facts of his own volition or did you go to him seeking them? Since your manual declares that men are to seek your deity I am assuming you launched out in search of these facts of your own volition, is this true or false?

Now my questions get a bit more technical.

By what epistemological means did you gather these facts beyond reality?

I mean, when you unplugged your brain stem from its socket and went drifting off into the foggy netherworld beyond reality to gather up these facts how did you find your way back to your body? There are so many of you floating around out there gathering these nuggets of truth how do you find your way back to YOUR body?

Is there some sort of cosmic traffic controller that directs you guys back home safely? It would be odd to wake up and find that you are no longer a white male living in Florida, wouldn’t it? Has this ever happened to you before?

And another thing, while you’re out there in the land beyond time, how do you know when it’s time to return to Kansas Dorothy ? Is there a time limit or something?

And while we’re on the subject, do you ever worry about being hijacked by demons? It seems I remember a lot of stuff written in your manual about folks being demon possessed. Is this how it happened? Or do they just get picked up along the way like hitchhikers.

Now here’s an idea for you David that you might want to consider, that could be profitable if you implement it properly. Maybe it’s already been thought of, I don’t know. I’m assuming you would. Perhaps you could start an insurance company selling mental health insurance policies to your fellow fact finders beyond reality. You never know when one could get lost and then the family would be stuck with that brainless body to tend to for such a long time. The financial burden could be devastating. You could set it up the way they sell those policies at the airports. Except you’d have to peddle yours at church I suppose.

Another question that just crossed my mind: While you’re out there gathering up facts, how do you distinguish fact from fantasy? Are the facts like glowing or something? Are they decorated in pink ruffles with those little flowery buttons and just a touch of glitter? Could you elaborate on this one for me?

I’m immensely curious about these facts beyond reality you are quoting David, and I must confess, a little jealous. I mean, here I am, trudging along like a dutiful little soldier, pouring thru books and internet files trying to determine how we got here and there you are, floating about like a puffball gathering up facts about our reality from beyond reality, bringing home new and wonderful insights that shock and astound everyone. How do you do it? It must be great living on the cutting edge of time. You must share this secret with us David. You must!

Rw: That’s not the issue. The point of my argument revolves around the fact that their knowledge and equipment to practice medicine was acquired via methodological naturalistic techniques rather than religious rites and rituals. Thus I have successfully established that conclusions about reality are not IMPOSSIBLE to verify from my worldview. In doing so I have negated your claim that they are.

David: You've proved that theism is not medical science. That's not such a great accomplishment as it seems. In response, I will say: Atheism is not medical science.

Rw: Uh…no David, I’ve demonstrated that your original assertion about the impossibility of verification was wrong. I just used medical science as one, among many, examples. Your straw man has long since been deflated and the batteries on its vibrator have all gone dead.

Rw: You see, this is why it isn’t a good idea to deluge the mind with fantasies of invisible deities David. It has a tendency to spill over into other areas of mental activity. No matter how many times I read and re-read your argument above I find no clear example of a doctor or group of doctors doing the things you claim for theistic reasons and saving the lives of millions. A bonafide example generally includes a few pertinent facts like names, dates, brief descriptions of the places visited and people treated. Your unsupported assertion is not a valid example.

David: The Catholic church and the denominations are well known for sending medical missionaries to help the sick and the dying in foreign lands worldwide. The reliigous precedent for such acts is the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

Rw: Tell me again David what relevance this has to the truth-value of YOUR beliefs or the impossibility of verification of the existence of YOUR deity?

Rw: David you seem confused and disoriented tonight. Have you forgotten the subject of our discussion? We were discussing the value of truth in relation to beliefs? How did we get to an implied accusation of equivocating atheism with medicine, technology or science?

David: I thought that we were discussing atheism and its relative merits compared to theism. Now you tell me that you are not discussing atheism ... well, I guess that means that the subject of Medicine, technology and science are just diversions.

Rw: All of which goes to show you the dangers of hanging out beyond reality. You appear to have lost touch with the meager demands of this discussion. While you were busy gathering all these unique facts and tidbits of wisdom you’ve been decorating our halls with, I have been focusing on the subject matter at hand, that being the relevant truth-value and rationality of YOUR beliefs…remember? Before you embarked on another fact finding tour beyond reality you made an unsupported assertion that both our respective positions were ultimately impossible to verify. So I presented the clear concise examples of science, medicine and technology to prove you wrong about one of our positions. Care to guess which one? Now that I’ve brought you up-to-snuff on this discussion maybe you’ll put away all your wind up straw men and actually address the cogency of my arguments.

rw: The point going un-contested here is that naturalistic methodologies have more than proven man’s ability to derive truth-value from his observations of nature, rendering your claim that conclusions about reality being impossible to verify, fallacious.

David: Naturalistic techniques are effective at deriving truth-value about naturalistic things. That is why medicine, technology and science are effective. The success of these naturalistic techniques relative to natural things does not guarantee any success of the same techniques when applied to supernaturalistic things.

Rw ( drumroll please) Enter: David the Dragon Slayer with his crystal ball and his magic brainstem carpet ride to take us places where no atheist has ever gone before. Look, up in the heavens, it’s a bird, it’s a plane, no it’s David’s brain blasting off into the unknowable supernatural realm beyond reality; off on another fact finding tour, dedicated to finding just the right facts to vanquish the evil Nature Bug who’s draining the minds of his flock and turning them into skeptics, otherwise known as atheists.

rw: One of the major reasons atheists question your claims of a deity is the fact that those claims are indeed impossible to verify. The atheist looks at the verifiability derived from naturalistic methodologies and compares them to the impossibility of verification of claims made by theological methodologies and chooses accordingly.

David: What is the naturalistic explanation for the Universe's existence? What is the naturalistic explanation for your own existence? What is the naturalistic explanation for your own opposition to the God-concept?

Rw: Quick as a flash, Rainbow Walking, David’s man Friday back here in Naturalopolis, realizing that David has yet again blasted off into the supernatural without his skullcap, reaches into his pocket and wraps his fingers around the one true gift David brought back from his last journey: a hand full of Jack’s Magical beanstalk seeds and tosses them high into the air. To his utter dismay they fall to the ground and lie there like pebbles in the sand. Perplexed, Rainbow reaches to gather them up for another toss when he remembers the words of wisdom from his venerable teacher, “They only work in Supernaturalopolis. I just brought them to you as evidence to support my outlandishly ridiculous assertions. Now do you believe me?”

Sadly Rainbow turns to walk away, David’s skullcap tucked tightly beneath his arms, wondering what on earth David will do if it happens to rain in the land beyond reality.

rw: The atheist’s rejection of your claims doesn’t leave him floundering around with nothing to justify his rejection because he has the reliable verifiable evidence of natural science to supply him with enough explanatory knowledge that doesn’t require irrational belief for support. Medicine, technology and science are not atheism, (something I never claimed anyway) but they were definitely not derived by faith in deities. Their success renders your claims superfluous.

David: If atheism is dependent upon natural science to supply {I]rational[/I] explanations for all that exists, I suppose that atheists are hoping that such naturalistic explanations are found. At the present moment, they do not exist. Under these circumstances, it appears that you are {I]not{/I] rational.

Rw: Ten hours later David returns from beyond reality with a single brightly wrapped package in his hands. A crowd gathers as he prepares to open it. A hushed silence falls upon everyone as he unwraps the brilliantly decorated paper and gingerly reaches into the box to withdraw a…question? Someone in the crowd exclaims, “He’s actually brought us back a relevant question from beyond reality!”

Before another word could be spoken Rainbow Walking (David’s man Friday back here in Naturalopolis) retorts loudly, “Oh master Obe Won, this is proof positive that you are psychic, psychedelic, psychosomatic and psychotic! You’ve brought back the question that you answered before you left! Remember what you told me Oh super rational one?


Rw: Atheism describes the default condition of a mind before it’s infected with irrational fantasies about invisible deities. It isn’t a religion or a belief system. It is the rejection of same. It sets a person free to fill their mind with knowledge consistent to reality.

David: What is this "knowledge consistent with reality" that you are filling your mind with? Who told you that that knowledge actually is consistent with reality?

Rw: You did oh wise and venerable teacher, who else?

rw: Theism’s lack of any substantiation of its claims renders it superfluous. It is neither positive nor negative. It is irrational.

David: Theism is more positive than atheism because theism declares that God exist, while atheism says nothing. Theism is more rational than atheism because theism attempts to explain the Universe's existence as a creative act of God while atheism doesn't attempt to explain anything at all.

Rw: Suddenly, before David could re-wrap the question he brought back from beyond reality a dark shadow passes over his crowd of followers. Everyone ducked their heads and glanced about furtively. Someone spoke the words they all dreaded to hear yet knew were true, “It’s the Nature Bug.”

“You must have awakened his passion for pretense oh master of wit and wisdom” replied Rainbow, “perhaps you shouldn’t have uttered such utterly ridiculous claims so loudly out here in an open forum.”

“Not to worry Sky…uh…er Rainbow Walker”, David replies as he dons his skullcap and takes up his manual, “do as I do and repeat after me.” After which David begins to turn his body counter-clockwise and stopping, clicks his heals together three times and begins the mantra, “ Theism is more rational than atheism, theism is more positive than atheism, theism is more everything than atheism.” as the little band of faithful begin to parrot his moves and mouth his inanities the shadow thickens when suddenly, ZZZZAPP! THUMP! BOIOIOING!

Everyone bolts in different directions in a frenzy of panic before realizing the Nature Bug has gone, leaving in its wake a thick arrid cloud of dust from which David emerges appearing dazed and confused.

“Anyone seen Rainbow?” he asks looking around the crowd of faithful for his friend.

Suddenly someone screams, “Oh God! Oh God no! It can’t be true! It just can’t!"

The crowd turns to look in the direction of the screams. There crouched down over a figure slumped in a pile on the ground is David, holding his friend gingerly in his arms and wailing like a banshee. “Rainbow, Rainbow, don’t leave us! Don’t let the Nature Bug turn you into an atheist! Come back Rainbow, come baaaaccck!”

For an instant, just an instant David appears to actually mourn the loss of his friend, but then quickly regains his composure. After all, he is just an image of David’s god who resides as a fact beyond reality…nothing more.

David prepares to lay his friend back upon the ground, contemplating his next move when almost as suddenly Rainbow sits up, (music please), face aglow with reason and eyes shining brightly with the intelligent passion of humanity, he locks his gaze upon David and looks directly into David’s shifting eyes and begins to speak,

“The relative value of your blindly asserted claims and un-supported statements comparing theism to rationality has little if no effect on your ability to actually satisfy the rigorous and exacting standards of truth. The lucid and robust rebuttals of your every blindly asserted claim, rebuttals supported by fact and reason, have proven once again that the Nature Bug is the way to go. Atheism is not quiet because it has nothing to say. Atheism is a gentleman and a scholar whose claims stand unrefuted thus, nothing more need be said. When theism climbs out from under the rotted ledges of make believe and produces a god concept worthy of discussion then, and only then, will you experience the deep rich voice of knowledge and wisdom expounded as atheism articulates the way, the truth and the life.”

The crowd gasps, David groans, Rainbow grins sheepishly, the curtain drops on act III.

Stick around folks for the popcorn and drinks. They’re immensely more fulfilling than David’s arguments.

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: rainbow walking ]</p>

David Mathews

Hello John Page,

David: What does atheism have to do with knowledge, direct observation or evidence?

David: Existence appears random. I could have been born in India, China, or in some Third World country. I suppose that I am just lucky to have been born in the United States, with all of its diversity, peace and prosperity.

The longing within my soul, I suppose, is not random. I suppose that came directly from God Himself, pre-installed into the human operating system.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Philosoft,

David: If you created such a Universe it would provoke your creatures to arrogance as they would consider themselves the center of the Universe and primary interest of the Creator.

David: You were praising the squid's eyes and now you reveal that even the squid's eyes would not satisfy you. I suppose that your complaint against God is frivolous.

David: Perhaps so. I must say that I am not particularly devoted to Star Trek and haven't watched any of the programs over the last five or so years, nor have I watched any of the original programs for at least as long (if not longer).

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello MadMax,

I enjoyed reading your post of June 30, 2002, 10:06 pm and must say that I am pleased that you are listening carefully to what I am saying. You consider all these statements assertions and that is true.

You stated your disagreement with those assertions. Several of those statements of disagreement are particularly worthy of note:

David: What does atheism say?

David: Therefore is it true that atheism does say nothing?

David: True.

David: Atheism contains an incomprehensible element in the sense that there is a Universe and there is humanity and there is the self, all of which remain unexplained and perhaps unexplainable within the context of atheism.

David: Can you understand the Universe? I find that remarkable, considering the difficulties that physicists and cosmologists are having when they attempt to comprehend it.

David: Naturalism/Materialism does not account for everything. What does Naturalism/Materialism explain?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Principia

People,

Surely most of you realize by now that Douglas Bender is an attention-seeker? Most of us have already thoroughly humiliated this joker as well as debunked many of his claims. So there is really no other reason to give him the pleasure of thinking that the garbage he writes deserves a response. Nor is any lurker going to give DJB any more credibility.

Ignore the child -- let him spout his vomit. Don't let him hijack this thread with his brand of bigotry, as he has done so often in the past. The thread is titled 'David Mathews' not 'Bash Douglas -- Again'

Scientiae

EDIT: Welcome, David!

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Scientiae[retired] ]</p>