Ab_Normal

Imprisonment is intended for many reasons:
* punishment
* rehabilitation
* protection of society

The Christian hell is intended only for punishment. Since the "soul" is stuck there for all eternity, there's no rehabilitative effect. I suppose you could say it has a protective effect, if the fear of hell is sufficient to keep a person from committing a sinful act which affects society as a whole. But fear of hell works only on those who believe in it, while everyone in a society can see offenders being prosecuted and sent to jail or prison.

Also, your argument ignores the affects of the criminal's actions on the *victims* of their crimes. A victim of rape feels the afteraffects for the rest of their life. The death penalty is used in capital cases; while it may have only taken 5 minutes to kill someone, the effect for the victim is decidedly permanent!

The concept of cruel and unusual punishment is that the "punishment should fit the crime". According to Christian beliefs, I'm on a straight road to their hell for denying the existence of their god. This act does not hurt anyone else. However, I will be punished for it *for the rest of eternity*. Seems a skosh out of proportion to me.

Stephen T-B

Belief. Belief. Belief.
RJS - everything you think you “know” about hell comes from what you have heard someone else say or have read what someone else has written. The reason you trust these people is because they assure us they have been vouchsafed divine revelations. Does that mean you believe Joseph Smith’s account of how he received the Book of Mormon?

You’d say it lacks Biblical support.
What happens, of course, is that “revelations” are embellished bit by bit. An initial one might be pretty vague, but it is now on the record, and if it is attributed to someone who lived a really long time ago then it gains credibility by virtue of its antiquity.
On that slender foundation, later saints and prophets and preachers add their own ideas, and over time, these too become part of the canon of divine revelation until, by 2002 the Born Again Christian can tell us in fantastic detail about hell and who goes there and why they go there and about the Mind of God.
Come on – do you really think you can understand the Mind of God - a Mind so powerful that it could bring all of the universe into existence and by virture of that fact is outside both space and time?
You describe something which you can “understand” because you bring it down to the puny dimensions of humanity.
If you are a Fundamentalist, you even believe it has legs!
No wonder you are able to tell us about hell.

wdog

RJS,

Your analogies of and involve acts of vicious assault on another. My analogy was more to the point of being an atheist, if god is fair then why would he punish me for simply requiring him to be here physically for me to talk to? (and don't hand me any crap about how he actually is here, I want to see him and talk with him, just like I talk with all the important people in my life) why the faith thing?

I simply could not punish any of my children for all eternity if they chose not to believe I was their father. Even if I was in their life I could not punish them like that let alone be away and require them to have faith in me since I gave them a book which described me. How could it be that I have more mercy than your god of infinite mercy and compassion?

RJS

Please refer me to a post where I gave an opinion on the aspects of hell - other than implying that it is eternal with a few questions.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

wdog

if you really want to see chritian apologetic sommersaults, read Lee Strobel's the "The Case for Faith" chapter on hell. the guy is amazing at how he descibes the 'degrees of hell' as degrees of seperation from god. when you really try and pin these people down on it, they realize how ridiculous it gets and this stuff is the result. and that was supposed to be one of the best.

RJS

and from another poster

and

I guess a few things come to mind that cause disconnects in our conversations. Since you don't believe in God, you can't envision that your sins (including denying God) do in fact hurt God. So your arguments ignore the effect of your sins on the victim.

Similarly, to the extent one of your children just ran off and never wanted to even acknowledge you, would you let them go - even if you knew that if they had a relationship with you it would be great for them? If later they wanted to come back, would you accept them back?

The Lone Ranger

An omnipotent and omniscient being is hurt because (lacking any actual evidence to compel it) some people don't believe in his existence?

For the Ruler of the Universe, this God person is awfully clingy.

Cheers,

Michael

[N.B. If an omnipotent being existed -- and wanted us to know it -- there would be no debate at all regarding God's existence.]

RJS

I know I have been hanging around here too much when I can predict the response - including unwillingness to answer my questions.

Agape love - without explanation. A parent willing to die for a child? what gives?

The Lone Ranger

Actually, a number of us have been answering your questions. A number of us have posed questions in return, that don't seem to have been addressed as of yet.

Quote:

Agape love - without explanation. A parent willing to die for a child? what gives?

Are these questions? They seem somewhat vague, to say the least. Perhaps a little clarification would help.

While we're on the subject, could you please explain how a finite being could possibly commit a crime that in any way justifies infinite punishment? More specifically, could you please explain how a God that is in any way worthy of respect -- much less worship -- would choose to torture someone for eternity for any crime whatsoever?

Cheers,

Michael

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: The Lone Ranger ]</p>

RJS

First, the agape love thing - that was really just late night rambling. Choose to ignore if you want (although I now know I repeat it below with even later night rambling).

Back on topic, the whole "finite creature" / "infinite punishment" thing. Well it is very hard to explain the concept to someone (people) who don't believe in God and the afterlife. But I'll try to give my perspective - and I'll refrain from the term torture (maybe weeping and gnashing of teeth ).

My personal belief is that our whole concept of time and space is likely to change at death (i.e. in Heaven and Hell there is no such thing as time and space, there just "IS") - remember the great I AM WHO AM . This is not intended to be a scientific discussion or anything, just one guy's opinion....And how do I come to such an opinion. Well, there are a few things that I find beyond our ability to comprehend - not "explain scientifically" - comprehend (so please hold all comments about how you can understand and I can't).

The three things I think about are

1) time / eternity -

the fact this thread exists may be evidence of our inability to comprehend eternity. But eternity is incomprehensible. Anyone disagree? And it relates to "time". Everything we know relates to time, and we can't imagine a "forever". We can't imagine a being existing for all time both past, present, and future. I think this all changes at death - when we say "time, boy, that was a silly concept". I find pearls of insight when I think about our memory, where we can remember all of the past 10 years today, right now. I think our memory confuses "time" somewhat.

2) space -

Have we found the edge of the universe yet? Wow, it is big - especially compared to the size of the most important thing in your life (you). Billions and billions of light years, galaxies, blah blah blah.......this is totally beyond comprehension. I guess if we found the edge of the universe it might change, but for now it is still in the infinite category similar to "eternity' - incomprehensible. I think "space" goes away at death.

so I take the eternal timeline and the infinite space concept and say "what the heck am I all about". Being a theist, I say what is God trying to do here. He certainly has made it extremely clear to us His power and glory.

then I get to my third point

3) agape love. period end of story. God is love. Can anyone explain how someone could love someone else "so much" that they would "gladly" give their life for them, or take punishment on their behalf - and such sacrifice could (would?) be the most deeply fulfilling act such person has ever committed. This is irrational.

I could keep rambling and relate all of this to Jesus and the Bible, but that is likely best saved for another night.

Cheers.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>