Freethought & Rationalism Archive

echidna · 09-05-2002, 08:04 PM

In terms of syntax & grammar, Koko�s sign language is very comparable to Makaton which is one of the many sign languages over here for the intellectually disabled (you�d maybe be familiar, I volunteer with the mildly intellectually disabled & occasionally use Makaton for some of the non-verbal kids).

I�d agree that a degree of over-anthropomophisation does appear likely in Koko�s case, and discussion of dreams is somewhat abstract. Basic languages like Makaton have little syntax and hence often very open to subjective interpretation when it comes to meaning. Dialogue is often far from clear. But at more basic levels of conversation, genuine linguistic understanding does seem present with Koko, as with a sense of self.

Corgan Sow · 09-06-2002, 04:58 AM

Quote:

originally posted by Dr S:

I find this idea of "Supremacy of Humans as a species" ridiculous.
What insecurities could prompt the need to feel you were "better" than all the other species? We are different from them only because our bodies are slightly different in shape. It can do some things better-like think and talk because of its morphology. It can do some things worse for the same reason.

I just want answers, not rebukes, dude. I didn't make an assumption, that was just a suggestion of topic. I'm not making sides between creationism and evolutionism because I need answers first.

Corgan Sow · 09-06-2002, 05:18 AM

Quote:

originally posted by GeoTheo:

A simpler explanation is that the gorilla did not understand the question.

Wow. It is like that Christian transcendal argument. So, if we can't understand primates, we are definetely smarter than them?

How utterly amusing.

GeoTheo · 09-06-2002, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corgan Sow:
<strong>

Wow. It is like that Christian transcendal argument. So, if we can't understand primates, we are definetely smarter than them?

How utterly amusing.</strong>

Actually no. When we train apes verbal language that they never develop in the wild and they garble it up we should always just categorically assume that they are way smarter than us and have a much better grasp of this language we taught them than we do.

DireStraits · 09-06-2002, 07:45 PM

GeoTheo said:

Actually no. When we train apes verbal language that they never develop in the wild and they garble it up we should always just categorically assume that they are way smarter than us and have a much better grasp of this language we taught them than we do.

DireStraits: Well I suppose we can say the same of kids who "garble up" langiage as well. And all the peoples who speak the various pidgin languages in the world. And just look how much Latin has been "garbled up" in French, Italian and Spanish.

You have not addressed the points made about your statements that animals are not self-aware. I think you now see that you over-reached in your first shots.

As for the matter of animals dreaming, I ask you again, have you ever owned a dog? Ever seen it asleep then suddenly start breathing irregularly and yipping and even barking, and even moving its legs? What do you think is going on there if it is not dreaming?

If a chimp can recognise a photo of itself, does that count as self-awareness? What about if a chimp sees a human whose face is in profile open his mouth and seemingly push a pencil all the way in even though the pencil only seems to go in because the person has it a few inches from his head? What about if the chimp immediately picks up another pencil and does the same thing in front of a mirror? Does that indicate self-awareness?

If not, what would you count as evidence of self-awareness? Writing a poem called "Song of Myself"?

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09-05-2002, 08:04 PM	#61
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	In terms of syntax & grammar, Koko�s sign language is very comparable to Makaton which is one of the many sign languages over here for the intellectually disabled (you�d maybe be familiar, I volunteer with the mildly intellectually disabled & occasionally use Makaton for some of the non-verbal kids). I�d agree that a degree of over-anthropomophisation does appear likely in Koko�s case, and discussion of dreams is somewhat abstract. Basic languages like Makaton have little syntax and hence often very open to subjective interpretation when it comes to meaning. Dialogue is often far from clear. But at more basic levels of conversation, genuine linguistic understanding does seem present with Koko, as with a sense of self.

09-06-2002, 07:45 PM	#65
DireStraits Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 81	GeoTheo said: Actually no. When we train apes verbal language that they never develop in the wild and they garble it up we should always just categorically assume that they are way smarter than us and have a much better grasp of this language we taught them than we do. DireStraits: Well I suppose we can say the same of kids who "garble up" langiage as well. And all the peoples who speak the various pidgin languages in the world. And just look how much Latin has been "garbled up" in French, Italian and Spanish. You have not addressed the points made about your statements that animals are not self-aware. I think you now see that you over-reached in your first shots. As for the matter of animals dreaming, I ask you again, have you ever owned a dog? Ever seen it asleep then suddenly start breathing irregularly and yipping and even barking, and even moving its legs? What do you think is going on there if it is not dreaming? If a chimp can recognise a photo of itself, does that count as self-awareness? What about if a chimp sees a human whose face is in profile open his mouth and seemingly push a pencil all the way in even though the pencil only seems to go in because the person has it a few inches from his head? What about if the chimp immediately picks up another pencil and does the same thing in front of a mirror? Does that indicate self-awareness? If not, what would you count as evidence of self-awareness? Writing a poem called "Song of Myself"?

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