Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 02-23-2003, 11:19 PM

I'm sure SF meant "writings *about* Jesus Christ." (After all, if he knew of some writings *by* Jesus, he'd be world famous, now wouldn't he?)

wildernesse · 02-24-2003, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
I'm sure SF meant "writings *about* Jesus Christ." (After all, if he knew of some writings *by* Jesus, he'd be world famous, now wouldn't he?)

I'm sure he would be quite famous--and his discovery debated with much interest. However, if he's as careful with the rest of his study of religions as he is with his prepositions, then I wonder how valid his conclusions are.

It's a very small point, I know. But when I read that, it was very hard for me to take the rest of his essay seriously. I felt that he didn't really know much about Christianity and so couldn't make an informed decision to find it (and theism in general) lacking.

If SF wants theists to consider his points (that theism is harmful to humanity because it is illogical/based on false comfort), then he needs to be more clear. If he just wants to preach to the choir, then I guess his essay is ok.

--tibac

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 02-24-2003, 10:32 AM

SecularFuture,

I remember you from the IG forums...

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture
My Search for God...

Conclusion

The burden of proof is not on the person who denies a claim. The burden of proof is on the person who is making the claim. Christians, Muslims, Jews, the non-religious believers in a God, and so on, all claim that there is a God; billions of believers, divided into categories all across the world. Unfortunately, not one of them, including the God they believe in, has given any proof....

I see...and what proof do you have that I exist?

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture

To believe you require religious faith, a blind acceptance devoid of logic.

Hmm...yet you believe there is gas at the filling station when you stop. Have you submitted a proof to the scientific community of this fact?

Please don't tell me your 'faith' in the gas station is only 'blind acceptance deviod of logic.'

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture

If there is no God, what should our next step be?

Exactly. More to point: what does it matter?

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture

If there is no one to tell us what is right from wrong, we must use our own intelligence and common sense to remind ourselves of the differences, and not do nonproductive acts simply because we can.

No my friend...it's much better than that. There is no right or wrong. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the mere categorization of behavior is anything more than an empty machination to keep you from feeling bad about the choices you make.

Purpose? Meaning? Feel free to fabricate some if it makes you feel any better though this is not rational behavior. Logic dictates you should not hide from any ramifications of your theory. Any meaning in life you perceive is just emotional anesthesia...designed to buffer your senses from the truth.

Welcome to the void.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

SecularFuture · 02-25-2003, 10:59 PM

Wildernesse,

Quote:

� Since I am unaware of any "writings of Jesus Christ", I have a hard time believing that you spent any great time reading prophetic scripture with any *understanding*. So this sentence makes the rest of this essay suspect to me.�

Okay� okay� I made a mistake in typing. Big fucking deal... You still haven't answered my question. What does your nitpicking have to do with the overall point of the report? What does Jesus have to do with the possible fact that theism, and theistic religion, could have all derived from a lack of critical ability?

Quote:

� But when I read that, it was very hard for me to take the rest of his essay seriously.�

Excuses... Are you afraid to face the questions presented in the report, or something? Whats with all of the dodging?!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas,

Quote:

�I see...and what proof do you have that I exist?�

The fact that you have the ability to type the question �what proof do you have that I exist� is naturalistic proof of your existence. And please don't start with *wordplay*. I really hate when theists try to do that with me! You believe in a supernatural superman, right?! Okay� Where is the proof for this supernatural superman?!

Quote:

� Hmm...yet you believe there is gas at the filling station when you stop.�

Believing in a filling station that has gasoline, and believing in supernatural supermen accompanied by supernatural angels with wings, are two completely different beliefs! One is based on reason, and the other is based on religious insanity.

Quote:

� Exactly. More to point: what does it matter?�

Because we�re alive, damn it! If you want to waste your life, go ahead. I�m going to take advantage of my existence, and do everything I can to enjoy my time alive.

wildernesse · 02-26-2003, 07:40 AM

Secular Future:

The reason why that mistake matters to me, is that you are purporting to have seriously considered theism, Christianity specifically, and found it lacking. Why should I (as a Christian) take you seriously, when I don't think you've even looked thoroughly at what you're railing against?

This mistake has nothing to do with addressing your question--as I said earlier. I think that your essay would be better if this mistake were corrected, and I gave you my reasons why I think that mistake hinders discussion with Christians.

I hope that you would consider my comments, as I think many Christians would have similar reactions to that statement. Of course, you haven't said that you even want to discuss this with Christians/theists, so it may not matter at all what they think.

I don't have much to comment on regarding the questions in your essay--I think that they are questions that many people ask when they are confronted with the history of humans or the way our minds work or natural explanations for events that were previously thought to be supernatural in origin. I, too, have asked most of those questions, but have reached different answers than you; answers that are the right ones for me, at this stage in my life. I'm sure that the answers you have found are right for you--at this stage in your life.

Also, I don't like being goaded into a discussion by basically being called "Chicken".

--tibac

SecularFuture · 02-26-2003, 03:02 PM

Okay... The mistake will be corrected.

Would you, or anyone else, like to discuss the main point of the report now? :banghead:

If theism is the result of a lack of critical ability, why should it even be considered?

Jayhawker Soule · 02-26-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture

If theism is the result of a lack of critical ability, why should it even be considered?

Faulty methods sometimes produce correct results.

Bathrone · 02-26-2003, 03:59 PM

SecularFuture, I admire your article.

Emotional Faith it very well is my freind.

There has been, in over 7000+ years of this dogmatic crap, never been any reasoned critical evidence whatsoever to support it.

Let us consider the impact it has had. The Xtns, sprout stuff about the emotional fullfiment God gives. I wonder how much emotional fullfiment has been found in;

1. The Crusades
2. The Spanish Inquisition
3. Hinderence of scientific inquiry
4. Abuse of political power
5. Guilt and inequality posed to Women
6. The obvious failure in a Good God who dams souls to be tortured for all eternity
7. The obvious failure of omnipresence and benevolence to create man knowing it would lead to immense suffering
8. The obvious failure of a grand deity against Original Sin
9. The countless numbers who have wasted their lives or terminated their lives prematurely for belief in an afterlife

Secular future is right. A secular future is to free manking from its opressing wieght of unnecessary crosses we all struggle to bear.

The Christain Apologetics cannot escape the very fact they are unable to proove any of their claims to the supernatural.

If they had their way, they would try to attempt ontoligical arguements and this wishy washy bs about not needing to have proof and the nature of faith.

People will do amazing things to fill emotional gaps within their lives.

SecularFuture · 02-26-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Faulty methods sometimes produce correct results.

Even when the methods are based on magical thinking and mythology? If a 21+ year old man believed in Santa Clause, he would be considered, by most, crazy. Why is belief in God considered okay or valid? It is a belief that is, essentially, based on nothing.

SecularFuture · 02-26-2003, 04:53 PM

Bathrone,
I will be back tomorrow to respond to your post. I'm REALLY - REALLY busy right now. :banghead:

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02-23-2003, 11:19 PM	#21
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I'm sure SF meant "writings about Jesus Christ." (After all, if he knew of some writings by Jesus, he'd be world famous, now wouldn't he?)

02-26-2003, 07:40 AM	#25
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	Secular Future: The reason why that mistake matters to me, is that you are purporting to have seriously considered theism, Christianity specifically, and found it lacking. Why should I (as a Christian) take you seriously, when I don't think you've even looked thoroughly at what you're railing against? This mistake has nothing to do with addressing your question--as I said earlier. I think that your essay would be better if this mistake were corrected, and I gave you my reasons why I think that mistake hinders discussion with Christians. I hope that you would consider my comments, as I think many Christians would have similar reactions to that statement. Of course, you haven't said that you even want to discuss this with Christians/theists, so it may not matter at all what they think. I don't have much to comment on regarding the questions in your essay--I think that they are questions that many people ask when they are confronted with the history of humans or the way our minds work or natural explanations for events that were previously thought to be supernatural in origin. I, too, have asked most of those questions, but have reached different answers than you; answers that are the right ones for me, at this stage in my life. I'm sure that the answers you have found are right for you--at this stage in your life. Also, I don't like being goaded into a discussion by basically being called "Chicken". --tibac

02-26-2003, 03:02 PM	#26
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	Okay... The mistake will be corrected. Would you, or anyone else, like to discuss the main point of the report now? :banghead: If theism is the result of a lack of critical ability, why should it even be considered?

02-26-2003, 03:59 PM	#28
Bathrone Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 16	SecularFuture, I admire your article. Emotional Faith it very well is my freind. There has been, in over 7000+ years of this dogmatic crap, never been any reasoned critical evidence whatsoever to support it. Let us consider the impact it has had. The Xtns, sprout stuff about the emotional fullfiment God gives. I wonder how much emotional fullfiment has been found in; 1. The Crusades 2. The Spanish Inquisition 3. Hinderence of scientific inquiry 4. Abuse of political power 5. Guilt and inequality posed to Women 6. The obvious failure in a Good God who dams souls to be tortured for all eternity 7. The obvious failure of omnipresence and benevolence to create man knowing it would lead to immense suffering 8. The obvious failure of a grand deity against Original Sin 9. The countless numbers who have wasted their lives or terminated their lives prematurely for belief in an afterlife Secular future is right. A secular future is to free manking from its opressing wieght of unnecessary crosses we all struggle to bear. The Christain Apologetics cannot escape the very fact they are unable to proove any of their claims to the supernatural. If they had their way, they would try to attempt ontoligical arguements and this wishy washy bs about not needing to have proof and the nature of faith. People will do amazing things to fill emotional gaps within their lives.

02-26-2003, 04:53 PM	#30
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	Bathrone, I will be back tomorrow to respond to your post. I'm REALLY - REALLY busy right now. :banghead:

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