Mageth

I never mentioned anything about who or what determines what the 'collective good' is - I simply stated that I believe it is superior to the 'individual good.'

Have you ever thought that "individual good" may well be the "collective good"? That a primary goal of the "collective good" perhaps should be the maximizing of individual freedom?

However, should 'we' refuse the 'collective good' then yes, perhaps we should be killed.

And at such time we, as a "collective", and as individuals, would be doomed - doomed to an existence of sameness, stagnation, and misery.

Everyone someday dies, so it's irrelevant if I am personally happy, unhappy and so forth for periods of my life.

Unless one considers the "collective good" to include the maximization of freedom, and thus "happiness", for the greatest number of individuals.

KnightWhoSaysNi

There are unpleasant extremes to both values.

On the extreme individualist side, you can have social darwinism, barbarians, an "every man for himself" world like the Road Warrior, those who think the strong have the right to exploit the weak, and the Ferengi from Star Trek.

On the extreme collectivist side, you can have rigidly enforced conformity/homogeneity like a "dictatorship of the proletariat", totalitarian Stalinism, Oceania from 1984, and the Borg from Star Trek.

Personally, I tend to embrace individualist values for the most part (with some shades of collectivism). I never did like playing in team sports. I spent two years in the Army Cadets during my teenage years and disliked being pressured to become like everyone else. I rarely took on to fads and preferred to dress and appear whatever I damn well liked to. I like my indepedence and sometimes resented it when my parents always did something for me and wouldn't let me do it myself. I disliked having to "conform" and like my self-autonomy, permitting me to do, think, and believe what I personally think is best based on my own judgment. A strong collectivism is incompatible with my personality. I would have been absolutely miserable living in a place like the former USSR.

However, I can respect those who hold more to a collectivist value system. Cooperation can often help people better than competition. Circumstances can often be the rule. Rugged individualism is probably not a great value when you're working 16 hours a day in a sweatshop in the Philipines for a pittance of pay. When resources are scarce and security and survivability is threatened, or an invading army seeks to destroy your country, a collectivist approach is far more rational than "every man for himself."

However, rather than seek destructive conflict to settle differences (e.g. seize power with a "dictatorship of the proletariat" or McCarthyist style anti-socialism), I believe in compromise and tolerance of differences. People who have both individualist and collectivist values can live together in a society peacefully.

Aerion

These philosophies are not mutually exclusive. If you look after the rights of the individual, the group will benefit as well. A group endevor is really a collection of individual efforts.

Mecha_Dude

I'd pretty much be with nightshade, but He didn't put an "In-between" option in the poll so I didn't vote.

KnightWhoSaysNi

Just to reiterate:

Thieving Magpie

I do believe the two coincide often, but never completely.

Yeah.. the thing is, that people equate extremism with dystopia - which may not be the case in actuality.

d'naturalist

I'm a strong supporter of individualism, so I had to vote that way; however, most of us as individuals choose to live in a society and in doing so assume some responsibility for the well being of the group.

RED DAVE

For the word "We" must never be spoken, save by one's choice and as a second thought. This word must never be placed first within man's soul, else it becomes a monster, the root of all the evils on earth, the root of man's torture by men, and an unspeakable lie.

Just for fun:


For the word "I" must always be spoken, especially when one is using another. This word must be placed first within a man's soul, so he becomes an exploiter, the root of all power on earth, and know the joy of man's torture by men, and an unspeakable liar.

RED DAVE

Amen-Moses

Why isn't there a "both" option?

I hate false dichotomies. :banghead:

Amen-Moses

KnightWhoSaysNi

I would like to bring up this old poll again. In another thread, I remarked how those with a Marxist ideology may have a different conception of the ideal of "freedom" compared to those who are non-Marxist.

I'd like to ask those who voted collectivism, how do define "freedom" exactly? Is your idea of "freedom" in accord with the values of groups like Amnesty International or documents like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

Jason