Wyz_sub10

Too much Dungeons & Dragons and Harry Potter, I guess.

hungry_student

yeah, i guess so.

Celsus

Hi Matt,

What you are doing is advocating public policy based purely on your own speculation--just because Christianity gives you comfort doesn't mean that it will give everyone else comfort. Quite the opposite in fact: Christianity (or more specifically, Calvinism) turned me suicidal in my late teens. Sorry, but you can't blame me for feeling it's a good thing that society isn't run by Christians. Secondly, whose God should we teach them about?

Joel

avalanche:ix

it doesn't. it also doesn't have anything to do with reality. leave the fairytales out of school.


let's not and say we did. do you honestly think kids want to hear that crap? no. besides, which god would we teach them about? all of them? so you would have them graduate school at their 80th birthday? perhaps you think the human mind is capable of infinite memory. i sure don't, if i was forced to listen to all that drivel in school, my real schoolwork would've suffered under it.
no thanks.





how can it be a GIFT (let alone a free one) if you HAVE to accept it. not to mention that you HAVE to accept it in order to NOT be sent to eternal SUFFERING? that's not a gift, that's BLACKMAIL.



i can also get you some bible quotes if you'd like, problem is, you wouldn't like them.




i don't. depression isn't the result of purely psychological reasons, at least not always. take me, i suffer from a serotonine deficiency. if i believed in a loving god, it wouldn't make any difference. i'd probably be more depressed. no, we can't teach children that there even is a god, at least not until they can think for themselves, instead of being indoctrinated by the idea that there is one.





if you really believe that then you sourely underestimate the human mind. what about all the atheist children that DO find purpose and DO make something of themselves? remember, there have been far more succesful atheists who were so from childhood, than christians. your reasoning is based on the premise that the christian perspective is right.






as opposed to the madness and suffering he uses us for now (if he exists, and don't come up with that stupid, god works in mysterious ways crap.)


OR, we decide we no longer have a use for god and live out our lives as WE ordain. because really, you may think that if i believed god exist i would become a good loyal christian, but i wouldn't. i couldn't give a damn if god is real, i am my own master, and i do solely my own bidding.


this is all fair and well, but that's exactly what students have been thought throughout ages (and today on many private schools.), surprisingly, christians actually have the highest suicide rates. my, how horrific!

hungry_student

any evidence? also i am leaving for the airport right now, i will be back on sunday, so i might reply then, or if you guys dont care, then i might just let this one rest.

Gregg

Matt, although you seem fairly open-minded, you also seem to be setting up a false dichotomy here. Please consider the following:

1. There's no evidence that teaching evolution causes teens to commit suicide, or that teaching them (in school) that something they can't see, hear, or touch loves them will prevent suicides.

2. There's nothing preventing parents and churches from teaching their children that they're important (from a spiritual perspective) or that God loves them.

3. There are lots of "theistic evolutionists" out there. Even the Catholic Church accepts theistic evolution (of course, it has to be accepted on faith, since there's no scientific support for it). There's nothing preventing parents and churches from teaching children either A) God somehow directed or influenced evolution as part of a creative process, or B) even if we evolved by entirely natural means, there's still a spirit or intelligence in the universe that loves us.

4. There are non-theistic philosophies, based on reason, compassion, and the Golden Rule, that help many people find meaning and purpose in life.

5. There's nothing preventing schools from teaching ethics, or from having classes in comparative religions, or from discussing both theistic and non-theistic philosophies.

6. There's nothing preventing schools from telling children they're important, unique, and valuable. All successful educators do this in one way or another. The sad thing is that they have to do so much of it. Children should be coming to school already assured of their importance and self-worth, and knowing that they're loved.

7. No matter how wonderful their childhoods might have been, and no matter how much you tell them they're loved, you will always have angry, rebellious, reckless, depressed, alienated, and even suicidal teens. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to prevent teen suicide, I'm just saying there will always be suicidal teens. Particularly in modern societies, where there is such a big gap between sexual maturity and full adulthood. Teens have powerful physical and emotional forces at work in them, which can sometimes be difficult to channel in positive and acceptable ways.

8. In the face of other factors that could be causing teen suicide to increase--high divorce rates, parents not providing enough guidance and emotional support, awareness of the current economic and political state of the world, all sorts of complex combinations of factors--posting the 10 C's or telling kids "God loves you and thinks you're important" seems like slapping a band-aid on the problem. Children need their parents (and their communities) to SHOW them that they're important and loved. That can entail making sacrifices--lots of them. It can mean staying in less-than-perfect marriages (is there any other kind?) because the kids come first. It can mean paying higher taxes so the kids can have good schools. And so on.

In other words, Matt, it's false to claim that there are only two choices here: Teach only evolution and let kids feel that they are unimportant and that life is pointless so that if they kill themselves it won't make any difference, or teach them, in public schools, that there's a supernatural being that loves them and has a plan for them and if they kill themselves instead of fulfilling that plan there will be indeterminate consequences. First, parents and churches are free to teach their children whatever they think their children need to know or believe in order to feel loved and important and to feel that life has meaning and purpose. Second, there are non-Christian and secular philosophies that can help people find meaning and purpose in life. (The seclar philosophies accept the implications of evolution that there is no "transcendant" force or intelligence that gives meaning, purpose, and direction to life, but argue that sentient beings can give their own lives meaning, purpose, and direction nonetheless.) Third, parents and communities (and society as a whole) have a responsibility to support children in concrete ways, to help them feel loved and important, and to give them hope for the future.

Fourth, schools can, in appropriate forums, present teens with a variety of religious and secular life philosophies and show where they agree and where they differ (being careful to remain balanced and neutral), and invite teens to think about their place in and responsibility to their comunities, their country, and their world.

Finally, a few things I think you're overlooking:

1. Not all kids in public schools are Christians. How do you teach them about "God" in a way that will satisfy all the different religious groups? Lots of religious people don't accept the Judeo-Christian concept of God, which is what, from your posts, it seems you would want teachers to implicitly teach. And how do you satisfy atheist parents?

2. How do you deal with the Constitutional and legal issues your idea raises? You have to admit, teaching children in school about a God who loves them and has a plan for them, even if you never explicitly state that this is the Judeo-Christian God, violates the Establishment clause.

3. Suppose society decides to teach kids about God through the public schools. Then, as the kids get older, they find themselves questioning God's existence. Then, they learn that teachers taught them about God because they were required to by law, and that some of their teachers may have actually been atheists and agnostics. They also discover that there are many, many people who don't believe in God but are quite happy and well-adjusted. Couldn't this cause them to become severely disillusioned or even suicidal?

Ultimately, Matt, I think you're better off if you leave religious indoctrination, or lack of it, to the parents. Focus on giving young kids a strong, individualized education and encouraging them to discover their unique talents and abilities. Teach them a basic system of ethics based on the Golden Rule. When they get older, give them a balanced overview of religious and secular life philosophies and a solid grounding in democratic ideals and principles, and encourage them to think about their social and civic responsibilities. I think this balanced--and honest--approach is the best course.

Gregg

lpetrich

hungry_student:
If you tell someone the truth, and they kill themself...versus if you tell someone a lie and they live on some false hope? Which is better for a productive society? Completely detached from any religious views, couldn't it be advantageous for a government looking to have productive citizens? I'm not saying it is or isn't...just the possibility.

This sort of viewpoint is far from new; Plato expressed something very similar in his Republic. In that book's ideal community, Plato's society's sacred books would be banned on account of all the bad examples they contain -- bad examples like heroes lamenting and gods laughing. In their place would be an official ideology that he called a "Royal Lie", one that was designed to "demonstrate" the legitimacy of the community's philosopher-monarch rulers.

If everyone believes that they are part of some higher plan, I'm sure they will work and encourage much better than if they think that their entire world is the product of natural forces.

What makes you so sure? And I don't think I want to be anybody's slave or anybody's pet.

lpetrich

And if one will not be happy unless one believes that one will get pie in the sky when one dies, then why not convert to Islam?

nogods4me

Well Duh! of course suicide is moving up the list of the most prominent killers of young people. Science is busy eradicating the others, like polio and auto accidents. How many diseases has religion eradicated? Something has to be at the top of the list, unless teens stop dying altogether.

nogods4me

That would be hair pie in the sky