ohwilleke

I agree. There are and were hundreds of unidentified flying objects. There are and were zero identified objects made by aliens.

Jayhawker Soule

It may well be that the issue is not the likelihood of extraterrestrial life but, rather, the probability of extraterrestrial intelligence. See, for example, the Sagan/Mayr discussions at this site:

<a href="http://www.planetary.org/html/UPDATES/seti/Contact/debate/default.html" target="_blank">Seti Debate</a>

IMO, a good deal of the problem stems from a teleological view of evolution -- our tendency to view evolution, not as a filter, but as a ladder, with homo sapien standing (precariously) on the highest rung. I know of no compelling argument to suggest that intelligence is a likely, much less inevitable, result of "descent with modification".

Ism Schism.

If evidence of UFOs exists, I for one certainly don't have it. That doesn't mean that there is not evidence somewhere -- and the fact that the government now takes it's current position of mocking it, after studying it for 22 years seems a bit odd in my book.

While I realize the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases are misunderstandings or absolute fabrications, not all can be simplified or dismissed quite so easily.

Take for example, the case of JAL1628 in 1987. Upon entering Alaskan airspace from Canada, the pilot and the copilot saw two lights to the left and slightly below them. After a few minutes they noticed that the position of the lights in relationship to their plane, had not changed. At this point they started to believe they were being followed. These objects seemed to be heading in the same direction, at the same speed they were.

A few minutes later two disc-shaped aircraft made a sudden jump to directly in front of the 747, while shining lights into the cockpit. The pilot stated that they kept pace so well in front of them "it looked like they were stationary".

They contacted the air traffic controller on the ground, stated they had "traffic" in their vicinity and asked if he could confirm. He could not, his radar did not pick it up. But after conversing with the plane about it's "traffic" for a few minutes, he decided to let the Air Force know about it(this was during the Cold War afterall). The Air Force's radar could pick the object up, but only occasionally. At some point the two-ships disappeared and a larger one came upon them, they used the onboard radar to estimate it's distance at 8 miles ahead and slightly to the left, which the air traffic control's radar could not initially verify, but the Air Force's radar could and did, in the same position that the pilot said it would be.

At some point it became clear to him how large the new ship was(he later compared it to an Aircraft Carrier), which constanly maintained the same position of the 747, so he asked for a change in direction, and Air Traffic Control basically told him he can fly where he wants there is no other traffic in the area.

After this air traffic control asks them to do a full 360, to see what the traffic does. They do, and they lose sight of it. Shortly after the the Air Force radios Air Traffic Control tells him that they have verified using "some other equipment", that there is "a flight size of two around"(two planes in the sky), and that the vehicle without the transponder is following the Japanese airplane. Eventually a United Airlines plane was brought in to take a closer look at the Japanese airliners "traffic", but as it neared JAL1628 lost sight of it, and the Air Force lost track of it. That was the last JAL1628 saw of the traffic, but Air Force radar eventually picked it up again -- behind the United Airlines flight.

A few months later CSICOP, used Mars and Jupiter as the explanation of the event -- this doesn't hold any water at all -- they didn't even have the correct time of the flight(they thought it was a full hour earlier then it actually was). The FAA's "official" response to this is that it was a ghost image on the radar -- that both blips were actually JAL1628. Even if this were the case it raises as many questions as answers, and seems awfully synchronized with those 3 delusional crewmen with many hours of flight experiance. John Callahan, who was at the time the manager of the FAA Division of Accidents, Evaluations and Investigations, turned People's Evidence in May 2001, and is using these files to further <a href="http://www.disclosureproject.org/" target="_blank">The Disclosure Project</a>.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ism Schism. ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

... and, luckily, we have folks like Steven Greer and the Disclosure Project willing to expose the perfidious conspiracy that has so masterfully kept the evidence from us for all these many years. The total lack of hard evidence should in no way lead us to question these visitations. On the contrary. The continued absence of proof should serve to remind us just how sinister and clever these conspiritors truly are.

None of this, of course, is reason to be over confident. It may well be that ghosts are behind this cover-up. This might, in part, explain its supernatural effectiveness. If evidence of ghosts exist, I for one certainly don't have it. That doesn't mean that there is not evidence somewhere ...

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Ism Schism.

If this is going to turn into a "straw-man" competition, and I am the judge: I'll give you a 2 on creativity(the set-up), and a 3 on execution(the beat-down). That is on a 10 point scale of course. Try again...

Marduk

"and thanks to marduck for being a pimp"

Huh? WTF?? I was on your side??? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Ism Schism.

I think you misinterpreted my comment (through no fault of your own of course) -- around here it's a compliment of sorts (at least among my age-group -&gt; mid-twenties). It sort of means "master of one's trade", and that is the way I intended it.

Just one of those little obscurities of Generation X, no foul intended.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ism Schism. ]</p>

Secular Pinoy

So your evidence for ETIs is second hand hearsay by fallible human memories reinterpreting some event?

I think we'd better start with the concept of Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. Do you think there is good reason for believeing that it is likely, perhaps abundant? What are your thoughts on the Rare Earth Hypothesis? The Fermi Paradox?

Jayhawker Soule

You have a belief system (or, at least, 80% of one), that is burdened by an absolute and persistent lack of hard evidence and therefore, of necessity predicated upon a long-standing and highly effective multi-governmental conspiracy.

The problem is that your position can be ignored or ridiculed, but it can never be defeated. There is no way to prove the absence of UFOs, government conspiracies, or leprechauns. There is no competition - you win. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

I do, however, have a question: What evidence would disuade you?

Marduk

No problem Ism.

"What are your thoughts on the Rare Earth Hypothesis? The Fermi Paradox?"


first Rare Earth;
I don't buy it, our star is of a common class in this Galaxy, I don't think there is anything unique about its formation or of our solar system, I don't believe every star and solar system comes about in a different manner, same for life, I think there is a universal law or principal for both, ie. it happened here, no reason to think it didn't happen in any number of similar systems. I'm not even convinced alien life elsewhere would be radically different than here on Earth. Stars create elements, Carbon Iron etc. same as here, if organic compounds came to earth on comets to begin life then they could have gone elsewhere as well and started a similar planet, the Galaxy may be full of 'Earths' seen one you've seen 'em all.
which brings us to the Fermi Parodox;
they may already be here, which is claimed
they may even have put us here and have been observing for the last 50,000 years (the ancient astonauts as the 'gods' of old theory, homosapiens; a genetic experiment to produce intelligent life from apelike homonids, Adam & Eve a working breeding pair)
they may not find us interesting enough, or may find us too violent, paranoid and superstitious to make themselves known formally.
They may be scouting Earth as a place to relocate after their home Planet went belly up, lots of reasons not to officially say hello.