Freethought & Rationalism Archive

keyser_soze · 05-27-2003, 08:14 AM

Quote:

dk: Good point, I was on a roller coaster and heard people scream with delight. It�s utterly ridiculous to associate a scream with pain, because most people scream from surprise/freight not pain.

Yeah, she was definately screaming in ecstacy...from the cancer. Uh...Do you even think before you write?

keyser_soze · 05-27-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

dk: If you read about the science of pain management its chronic pain that�s most commonly mistreated, not because it is untreatable but misdiagnosed. Many health care workers wrongly believe pain is accompanied by shrieks of pain, which is blatantly false.

The fact that most of the time they moan, or writhe around quietly trying to bear it...does the lack of screaming every time negate the PAIN aspect? WTF are you smoking?

keyser_soze · 05-27-2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

dk: I probably have more cancer in my family than you have relatives, my mother and two grandparents died of cancer, and my sister is a Doctor, who managed their pain in the final days of life. I know the drill up close and personal. Pain is manageable, its chronic pain that�s problematic and you�re full of beans.

So you have 3 people who died of cancer, and a relative that's a doctor. I'm convinced, you should start practicing medicine now. btw, I work a network IN a HOSPITAL. Oh yeah, did I mention that my first job was discharge planning for TERMINAL and elderly patients? You know a doctor? Fuck, I know hundreds, does that make me qualified to determine when someone is, or is not, in pain? I generally assume that the "dear in the headlights" look, accompanied by either screams, grunts, moans, or teeth clenched writhing around in the bed to be....painful. How silly of me.

You don't know the drill at all. While doing discharge planning I saw so many people dying, that it would be the population of a small town. Does that make me qualified to say they weren't in pain, when they said they were....or better yet, exhibited the rather FUCKING OBVIOUS SYMPTOMS? You really are a prize.

dk · 05-27-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
So you have 3 people who died of cancer, and a relative that's a doctor. I'm convinced, you should start practicing medicine now. btw, I work a network IN a HOSPITAL. Oh yeah, did I mention that my first job was discharge planning for TERMINAL and elderly patients? You know a doctor? (SNIP)

I'm convinced doctors should practice medicine not suicide. You paint doctor assisted suicide like its an answer to the problem of pain. I'm sorry you can't support your opinion with any evidence but that's no excuse to resort to obscenities. Suicide in and of itself is a problem. For example the number of youths in the US that commit suicide has been on the rise for 30+ years. The answer to pain is pain management, not turning doctors into the grim reaper. The Hippocratic Oath says do no harm, not kill people in pain.

Loren Pechtel · 05-27-2003, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
So you have 3 people who died of cancer, and a relative that's a doctor. I'm convinced, you should start practicing medicine now. btw, I work a network IN a HOSPITAL. Oh yeah, did I mention that my first job was discharge planning for TERMINAL and elderly patients? You know a doctor? Fuck, I know hundreds, does that make me qualified to determine when someone is, or is not, in pain? I generally assume that the "dear in the headlights" look, accompanied by either screams, grunts, moans, or teeth clenched writhing around in the bed to be....painful. How silly of me. You don't know the drill at all. While doing discharge planning I saw so many people dying, that it would be the population of a small town. Does that make me qualified to say they weren't in pain, when they said they were....or better yet, exhibited the rather FUCKING OBVIOUS SYMPTOMS? You really are a prize.

Nah--it's obviouos symptoms of fear of dying! It couldn't be pain--we can control that.

dk · 05-27-2003, 02:28 PM

keyser_soze,

Sounds like your hospital network has some serious communication and education problems. For starters little is known of cancer pain. If you want to treat cancer pain, then we need to study it, not suicide people.

Quote:

Pain is Undertreated?
Opiod drugs are an important type of pain relief medicine, and the fact that they can be addictive likely plays a major role in why physicians are often reluctant to prescribe them. Other factors that may play a role in the undertreatment of pain include a physician's lack of knowledge about pain medication, a physician's failure to inquire about or assess their patient's pain, and concern that a patient may be taking advantage of their physician.

Again, open and honest communication is essential to avoiding the undertreatment of pain. If you do not feel that your physician is listening, be assertive and persistent. You may choose to seek another opinion. Talk about it with your family as well, so that they can advise your medical team about your pain, should you be unable or too weak to demand better relief.

Cancer Pain Statistics
Because cancer pain has only recently begun to attract the attention it warrants, there are few statistics on its incidence and severity. Some small-scale studies have suggested that cancer pain is suffered by 30% of all patients receiving therapy, no matter what the stage of their cancer, and 60-90% of all patients with advanced disease. Pain usually increases as the disease progresses.

The most common pain is from tumors, especially breast and prostate tumors, that metastasize to the bone. Sixty to eighty percent of all cancer patients with bone metastases feel pain. The second most common cancer pain is caused by tumors infiltrating the nerve and hollow viscus. Tumors close to neural structures seem to cause the most severe pain. The third most common pain associated with cancer results from side effects of chemotherapy, radiation, or surgery.

Cancer pain is usually caused by a variety of factors and is felt in different parts of the body. In one study, for example, more than 80% of patients complained of two distinct pains, and more than 30% complained of three distinct pains. - oncologychannel -

winstonjen · 05-27-2003, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk
I'm convinced doctors should practice medicine not suicide. You paint doctor assisted suicide like its an answer to the problem of pain. I'm sorry you can't support your opinion with any evidence but that's no excuse to resort to obscenities. Suicide in and of itself is a problem. For example the number of youths in the US that commit suicide has been on the rise for 30+ years. The answer to pain is pain management, not turning doctors into the grim reaper. The Hippocratic Oath says do no harm, not kill people in pain.

How is giving patients a lethal dose of morphine any different to assisting them with suicide?!?! And don't even try to compare youth suicide to rational death by the terminally ill - they're completely different.

And using the Hippocratic Oath is pathetic - it also says that women should not practice medicine, that patients should not undergo surgery, and that abortion should not be performed. Following a fraction of the oath is like not following it at all. The words of such hypocrites are empty, and make me sick.

Also, you say that suicide is an obscenity. Isn't torture an even worse obscenity?

keyser_soze · 05-27-2003, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk
keyser_soze,

Sounds like your hospital network has some serious communication and education problems. For starters little is known of cancer pain. If you want to treat cancer pain, then we need to study it, not suicide people.

What do we do in the meantime? That's right, fuck em, let em suffer until we find a better way to treat pain...

Dune · 05-28-2003, 12:43 AM

-And if morphine is inadequate, other methods like medical marijuana should be considered.-
If morphine is not effective, pot will not help. THC is not a pain killer. It has lots of other effects, but the pain thing is a complete misnomer. If morphine doesnt work, try duragesic.
In practice, cancer patients are given as much pain killer as they decide they want. And often near the end, it no longer helps. The body adapts to opiods, becomming tolerant to the point when even giving massive doses of opioids no longer can effectivly control pain.
It should be the patients choice how they live thier lives, not the doctors and especially not passers-by or onlookers. End of life is a personal choice, and many endstate cancer patients want to leave the world with some dignity.
It is cruel beyond words to make a person live in unrelenting agony for months at a time when there is no hope of recovery. It should not be taken lightly, mind, but in the end, it is their life.
Doctors for years have understood this and have (and will continue to) prescribe lethal doses of narcotics.
-

winstonjen · 05-28-2003, 04:13 AM

I'm interested in reading what dk has to say. According to Who's Online, he spent over 30 minutes quoting a message in this topic.

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05-28-2003, 12:43 AM	#29
Dune Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 65	-And if morphine is inadequate, other methods like medical marijuana should be considered.- If morphine is not effective, pot will not help. THC is not a pain killer. It has lots of other effects, but the pain thing is a complete misnomer. If morphine doesnt work, try duragesic. In practice, cancer patients are given as much pain killer as they decide they want. And often near the end, it no longer helps. The body adapts to opiods, becomming tolerant to the point when even giving massive doses of opioids no longer can effectivly control pain. It should be the patients choice how they live thier lives, not the doctors and especially not passers-by or onlookers. End of life is a personal choice, and many endstate cancer patients want to leave the world with some dignity. It is cruel beyond words to make a person live in unrelenting agony for months at a time when there is no hope of recovery. It should not be taken lightly, mind, but in the end, it is their life. Doctors for years have understood this and have (and will continue to) prescribe lethal doses of narcotics. -

05-28-2003, 04:13 AM	#30
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	I'm interested in reading what dk has to say. According to Who's Online, he spent over 30 minutes quoting a message in this topic.

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