Tristan Scott

We?

No, we don't know that at all.

Jayhawker Soule

Would you make the same claim about Paul and Acts?

doubtingt

You may not believe it, but that just means your belief is not based on a rational application of your own knowledge about natural laws or literature.

doubtingt

I'll have to go back and brush up on what assertions are specific to these portions.
However, I fail to see how it is justified to
break out select parts. Whether Pauls actual writings contain directly falsified claims or not, his hand in the whole enterprise of constructing the NT means that any part of it taints the veracity of his own claims.

Tristan Scott

There is no need for this.

Gregg

doubtingt, are you at all familiar with the work of Earl Doherty? You might want to check out his Web site at <a href="http://www.jesuspuzzle.org." target="_blank">www.jesuspuzzle.org.</a>

Gregg

doubtingt

It's not a personal attack. It's my assertion
that a logical application of very basic knowledge of natural laws and literary fiction
neccessarily lead to the conclusion that
the Gospels belong to the category of fiction.

Since this knowledge is so basic, it would be
highly unlikely that an average adult who went
through even a crappy education would not possess this knowledge. Thus, the only plausible explanation for someone rejecting the conclusion that the Gospels are fiction is that they did not
reach their belief via a rational application of
their own basic knowledge.

Tristan Scott

Well, since you are so well versed, maybe you could tell me at exactly what point does a literary piece become fictional. You said earlier that "The Gospels are a work of fiction as a whole, b/c there are too many clearly fictional aspects of it for it to qualify as non-fiction." Maybe you wouldn't mind telling me how many fictional aspects are required? Is there a certain percentage? Or is it just a gut reaction that you have, at some certain point you think, "ok enough is enough, I now declare this fiction."

Since I am not really educated in this aspect of literature, not even with a crappy education, I would appreciate any illumination you could provide.

Also, could you tell me, is there a difference between a myth and a work of fiction? You see, I have always considered the Bible to be a myth, however I would have thought there would be a difference between fiction and mythology. Are you saying they are one and the same.

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tristan Scott ]</p>

doubtingt

In this story the main character's birth, death (ressurection in this case), and most notable feats that warrant him being the focus of the story are all known fiction. In other words, the
most major elements of the plot, the elements that
give structure and purpose to all the other minor events are fiction.
I can't think of any circumstance under which a story with these features would not qualify as fiction. The fiction-nonfiction continuum is not well enough specified to aviod fuzzy distinctions for borderline cases, but this kind of case is at the fiction extreme end, so this is not a problem here. If all of the minor elements could be
verified with virtual certainty, such a story would still count as fiction, which is far far more than could be said of the minor elements of
the Gospels.

Fiction essentially means that the events of the story did not actually take place in the manner, setting, or to the characters involved.
At best, myths are simply a particular subcategory
within the domain of fiction. However, whether a fictional story is also a "myth" does not bear upon the fiction vs. non-fiction issue at hand.

Also, many might suggest that a work of fiction
qualifies as a myth according to how people view, and respond to the fictional story, and has nothing directly to do with the qualities of the story itself. In other words, if people believe a fictional story, its a myth, but if they believe its fiction, then its simply fiction. I cannot
think of any actual or theoretical examples of
myths that are not also fiction.

Tristan Scott

No. You don't know that these elements are fiction. All you can say is that with your understanding of physical science that you don't believe these are possible. The only elements of the NT story that we can say are not true are those that are contradicted elsewhere in the NT.

You also do not have a good understanding of the hellenized Jewish methods of writing scripture and the use of allegory and parable in doing so. I find it ironic that atheists are as ignorant of this as are theists.