Unum

Let me ask you, are you conscious? Do you answer this yes, or would you say parts of me are conscious while other parts are not? As for me, I would answer the question, yes I believe I am conscious. Who I am and what I am is conscious. I do not know where this consciousness comes from, nor do I know where it begins or where it ends. So, yes, this One that I speak of is conscious as I am conscious. Just as I am conscious of my heart, my lungs, my body, this world, etc. the One that I speak of, is conscious of everything, including you and I. Consciousness is something we all literally share. There is One consciousness, yet for the most part we are only conscious of part of it, as we view this consciousness from our own unique perspective due to who we are and what we are. You spoke of "unconscious" cells and then said that you were not an "unconscious" cell. How then, not being this cell, would you know for certain, that they are not conscious? Perhaps they are conscious in a way that you do not understand. You claim they are unconscious, yet when they are combined to form you, they suddenly become conscious. How is this possible?

I would hope that there is still a heated debate among logicians as logic as it stands currently is unable to deal with singularities. It is at these points where human logic completely breaks down. Even calculus, to this day, still has problems with these points. It is at these singular points where both infinity and zero stem from. It is a contradiction for something to both be infinite and zero, yet that is exactly what happens at a singularity. When developing calculus Newton wrote "1/0 = infinity", yet this doesn't make sense as division by zero doesn't make sense to us. So L'Hopital changed the equation to "lim x->0 1/x = infinity". However, that didn't solve the problem, it only hid the problem. Somehow, somewhere there is a division by zero as eventually it must reach the limit. Without reaching the limit, Xeno's paradoxes would still stand, the hare would never catch the tortise, nor would we ever run into a wall. It is at these singular points where our analog world becomes digital and a quanta is released in an all or nothing fashion. It is also at these points where our logic absolutely fails.

Peace,

Unum

Jobar

Unum:
I disagree. Our physical body doesn't require this, it wants this. In other words, there is nothing our body needs, but there is plenty that our body wants.

Well, in one sense we don't "need" to continue living. In that sense, there is nothing we need. But if we are to continue living and knowing, we *do* need to keep eating, for instance. Certainly our bodies have a built-in survival instinct; I for one find the imperative desires this instinct imposes upon my consciousness to be needs. Some people can hold their breaths until they lose consciousness, whereupon they start breathing again.

Unum:
When someone thinks they have learned the Tao, the Tao has actually eluded them. By knowing nothing, we know everything.

"He who speaks does not know; he who knows does not speak." Still, I notice that Lao-Tzu (and you, and I) continued speaking; do none of us know?

Unum:
Unfortunately you do not know this. The fact that you can use the term dragon and it conjures up an image in my mind means they most definitely exist. How would it be possible for something to not exist, yet have properties (such as they breath fire) and have the ability to cause an effect (thereby having energy and likewise power)? They may exist only in my mind, but as far as I know my mind is the thing that determines my reality.

There is a reality inside our minds, yes; our subjective reality, however, is not the same thing as consensus or objective reality. Unless you are a solipsist, you do not believe the world goes away when you sleep, or ends when you die.

I can and do imagine subjective realities quite different from objective reality; but if I try to live my life as the superhero I sometimes imagine I am, I will be rapidly and probably terminally disillusioned. I cannot leap tall buildings at a single bound, etc. Knowing the strictures of objective reality is necessary if I am to maintain my subjective reality! Because of this, I am very careful to distinguish between the realities within and without. In concensus reality, dragons exist only in fiction, and if you try to deny that you will suffer needlessly. Believing that your subjective reality trumps objective reality is always anti-survival, to one degree or another, and for this reason I think that god-beliefs are being slowly bred out of our race. (I hope so, anyway.)

Unum

Want 0 (zero) is the desire to live. All other needs (Maslow's hierchy of needs) stem from this want. We already live forever, whether in human form or another form. We also know everything there is to know. By continuing this want, we continue to be affected by the cause and effect (life and death) cycle that the Buddha spoke of. It is not possible to live in the point of the moment if we are out on the circle worrying about life and death.

We think we know, that is why we continue to speak.

Of course we are all careful in distinguishing between the subjective world and the objective world. However, you claimed that dragons do not exist and I believe that they do. Although, they may only exist in the subjective world. Perhaps they exist in one universe of many in the so-called "multiverse".

As for me, I try to believe in everything and anything. I do this, so as to not place a limit upon myself and what is possible. My reality is determined by what I believe it to be. The only thing that can hold me back is myself. I think it's self-defeating to believe that something isn't possible. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would believe this way as a negative can never be proven. I also believe that the reason that a negative cannot be proven is because in objective reality the negative does not exist, only relative negatives exist. How would it be possible for there to be -3 dragons in the universe.

The concept that some call God, Allah, The Tao, Dharma, etc. will never go away. It is our reality itself. It's what humans have talked about and wondered about ever since they've been able to talk and wonder. It is the thing that just is. The moment we discover what is, is the moment that the universe as we knows ends and it all starts over again.

Peace,

Unum

Jobar

Unum... I know about the Unity you speak of, as much as any human being can be said to know. I've stood on that peak, and experienced the breathless, wordless, thoughtless ecstasy which is the closest we can come to direct experience of It. Like a real mountain peak though, we can struggle our way to the top and look out from it, but we cannot *live* there. It's something we can only do for moments or minutes, not for months. Our physical bodies will not allow it.

I'm sure you know the difference between a Buddha and a Boddhisatva. A Buddha will stay on the peak until he dies, transcending the world of opposites. A Boddhisatva will reach the peak, and see what can be seen, and then go back to the world and attempt to teach others to reach the same height, for the good of all humanity.

I think there is an even more enlightened state. A Zen Master does not try to teach the way to the peak; he sees that the everyday mind *is* the Buddha mind. Our human consciousness is in no way less noble or desireable than cosmic consciousness, and is far easier to live with. By living and dying, one may transcend living and dying.

Hey! I just made a good koan!

Eclectic eye

Profound topic, Unum, thank you for starting it.

The reason I registered on this forum was to reply to this thread. I strongly agree and have pondered the very concept for several years. It brings to mind an old saying:

"I am the eye with which the Universe beholds itself and knows itself to be Divine"

Universal Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, as you said, what difference does it make what we call it? Mere words from mere mortals, but, we are within it and it is within us. Or as Hermetic philosophy puts it so succinctly, "As above, so below".

Good koan, Jobar.
So I take it that you experienced satori?

Jobar

Welcome to Internet Infidels, eye. I agree this is a good topic; we have had several others in the recent past on pantheism/mysticism/Taoism/Buddhism/Hinduism, which are as good, I think.

As to satori- the safe answer would be "mu" I suppose. But I'll stick my neck out and answer yes, even knowing any Zen master worth his stuff would sneer at me or beat me with his staff.

For a long time I maintained silence when questions about religion and ultimate meanings were asked. Then I realized that, like Alan Watts, indeed like Lao Tzu himself, I *enjoyed* trying to talk about things which I know are at root unsayable. For me it's a form of lila, if you will. And II is a marvelous playground!

Eclectic eye

Thank you for the welcome, Jobar, I'm happy to be here. I've read about those stern Zen taskmasters. Although I think it would've been quite the experience to have learned from D. T. Suzuki!

I do understand Kung-fu tse's and Gautama's firm reluctance to discuss either deity or the after-life with their students. As Yoda would say "Distractions they are...Be here now"!

There comes that time in the seekers quest when the crutch of religion is left behind and the externalized god is discarded, no longer useful.

A story comes to mind of a Tibetan lama who read the judeo-christian bible. After he was finished a fellow monk asked him for his impressions. "Very strange" the lama replied, "I couldn't tell the difference between their god and their devil"

Sharing insights with others on the journey within can be very rewarding. Having to carefully choose ones words to describe experiences beyond words is a beneficial exercise in and of itself.

I really hope Unum comes back. He articulated his opening post so concisely, far better than I could've and his replies were admirable. All without using the dreaded "G" word! I thought I would catch some flak for using the "D" word!
(Now if I only knew how to use those instant graemlins and UBB codes. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks!) [grinning face here]

Pierre

But the Big One would be unable to “help” me in my dying moment. It cannot “save” me. It cannot “forgive” my sins. It cannot give me an “afterlife”. It cannot be “God”

I think it is rather a matter of size than anything else.

Why don’t you rather call your “Big One” the “Biggest One”?

Unum

I would be very careful in throwing away the externalized god. Internally, you are One of many. Externally, you are one of Many.

If God is all-powerful, where does the devil get power from?

Many times I find it quite fun to try and describe the experience, yet I also find it agonizing as well. The experience I feel is perfection and to use something so imperfect as words to describe it, just can't do it justice.

Thank you for your gracious compliments. It's always nice to hear that it has resonated with someone. As for not responding promptly, it takes me a while to craft responses and I'm a little stretched for time right now.

Peace,

Unum

Unum

What sort of "help" would you need in your dying moment?

What is it that you would need to be saved from?

All sins are forgiven with time. As this entity is everything, it is also time. So, yes, it is the One that forgives your sins. Even you, right now, can forgive your own sins if you own up to them and take full responsibility without blame for their consequences.

It doesn't have to give you eternal life because you already have it. It is said that energy is neither created nor destroyed. In other words, energy has been and will always be here. It just is. Your body is essentially energy at it's most fundamental level. This energy that makes you up right now is eternal. When you die there will also be a remnant of you that is left over. The energy in the memory of who you were and what you were continues to last long after you're gone. Our life and existence is very similar to the life and existence of a star. When a star dies, the core compresses in upon itself and remains in place for a long period of time (the period determined by how large the star was), while the outer part explodes and is ejected outward to eventually form into other celestial bodies, starting the process all over again. The core is our soul (or energetic memory) while the part that is ejected is our physical body (returning to the earth in our case to form new life).

This parallel between ourselves and stars can also be extended to form a plausible explanation of heaven and hell, that I'll share with you if you like.

Are you so sure? In the Bible and Quaran God or Allah has been defined as being a singular all-powerful, all-knowing entity, which this entity that I speak of is. Hindus, Buddhists and Taoists speak of the supreme reality which this entity is. Even polytheists speak of multiple gods such as the waterfall god, the river god, the thunder god, etc. that this entity can also be considered to be. Some say there is no evidence for God, Allah, dharma, etc., I couldn't disagree more. All evidence points directly towards it.

It's much more than that. It is everything there is.

Call it whatever you want, it makes no difference to me.

Peace,

Unum