HelenM

Thanks!

But isn't that a contradiction in terms - to talk about the will kicking in passively? Isn't the whole point of the will that it is consciously invoked? I'd rather say no act of the will is involved in the example you gave, than that it passively comes into play.

If it can be that passive then you may as well set aside 'an act of the will' as meaningless - if it can be basically undetectable at times. In the same way it's meaningless to say "It was sunny today" can mean "the sun shone for 0 seconds today" as well as "the sun shone for a positive length of time today". Maybe I shouldn't use an example like that with a Scottish person though; it might seem like gloating since the sun does actually shine where I live (just outside Chicago)

Is it a passive or active one, then? Since by your definition it can be undetectable?

If it's involved passively, so it's undetectable, does it have any meaning to say it's involved?

Helen

malookiemaloo

Good points again, this time on the passive will! I think you are right.

No, I am saying that to believe in God or not, both are concious acts of the will.

By the way, the sun's shining here in Glasgow!


m

HelenM

I'm not sure there's a detectable act of the will happening when a person is believes the evidence either way is conclusive. I'm not saying it is necessarily conclusive - I'm simply saying that sometimes they believe it to be.

I'm not sure my will is powerful enough to believe that!

(Unless you can 'webcam' some proof of it for me )

Helen

malookiemaloo

Can you give me an example of 'the will in action' that would not apply to believing or not believing in God.

Going out now. Back tomorrow.


m

HelenM

Doesn't my example of making a risky investment count?

How about trusting someone to hold the ladder you're climbing?

I think it may come into play whenever we do something where the outcome is uncertain - because what we have done is made the decision - an act of will - to hope for a good outcome if we do whatever-it-is.

Helen

JCS

Watching my children grow from infants to adults I would say it has everything to do with it, since they have never spontaneously begun believing in gods. They were not exposed to religious concepts so willful disbelief was not necessary. In order for them to believe they would have to consciously seek out a belief. I on the other hand was exposed to religion and I willfully excluded it from my life.



Well if they only "believe" that they are facts and the non-theist can provide evidence showing what they believe is in fact not a fact this is a good thing no?

The will needs information to act upon does it not?

Infidelettante

I'm confused here Helen. Are you saying the will is the same as faith? That it only applies to questions of uncertainty? I don't see that the will is the agent of discrimination in the sense that it weighs the pros and cons of a situantion or of a question. The will comes into play when we choose which side of the question we come down on. Which side we accept or reject and how we act upon it.

JT

schu

To the contrary, if one has facts they need no faith, the thing is selfevident. As one of my favorite writters, Mark Twain pointed out: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

malookiemaloo

Are you saying that faith and facts are mutually exclusive? Surely this can't be.

If, as Helen says, we can sometimes take decisions, believe things etc without the will coming into play then we are really acting outwith ourselves.

I think I shall revive my 'passive will' theory which I formulated then dumped yesterday.


m

HelenM

One thing I feel uncomfortable about with this position is that it may be an attempt to justify the common Christian notion that many non-theists have made a decision of the will against acknowledging those things that would otherwise lead them to belief in God.

Which is parallel but opposite to Mark Twain's comment about faith and facts - which implies that it's believers who by an act of the will decide to believe in spite of facts to the contrary.

malookiemaloo can you explain to me the purpose of your 'passive will' theory? Can you define the will for me?

JT I don't know how to respond to your question. If you're confused by what I wrote that may well because I'm confused. That's certainly possible, imo!

take care
Helen