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spin · 03-20-2002, 02:04 AM

BTW - I failed to note that Dr. Halpern wrote the article referenced above back in 1992, i.e., a decade ago. I do not know when he would now date the advent of monotheism.
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The last I heard, a few years ago, he hadn't.

spin · 03-20-2002, 06:33 AM

Some days back Bartok wrote:
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the story of Jesus' family fleeing to Egypt and coming back to Egypt comes with a reference to a verse in Hosea: "out of Egypt I have called my son." It has been found that the writer of Hosea was actually speaking about the part of Israel that went to Egypt during the Babylonian exile.
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While I agree with the first part, that Tanakh "prophecies" for particular situations were simple reused not taking notice of the original contexts of the prophecies (though this can be seen in Dead Sea Scrolls as well), the second part, which seems reasonable, is stated as though fact. Bartok, is there actually any strong evidence for dating the Hosea prophesies to the time when Judah was conquered by Babylon? Hosea does speak of Israel and Ephraim and not Judah. I have the tendency when I see both Assyria and Egypt mentioned together to think of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic empires who were haggling over Palestine during the third century BCE, but I haven't given the issue of dating Hosea serious thought.

Bartok · 03-20-2002, 06:19 PM

Spin, the reason the book of Hosea does not mention Judah is because it isn't where the prophet prophesied (that was silly wording, wasn't it?). Hosea is thought to be a prophet in the northern kingdom Israel. There are references to three Judean kings in 1:1-Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah-but this is theorized to have been added later. I should have mentioned Assyria, not Babylon. The thought is that Hosea apparently foresaw bad things ahead with the Assyrian presence and linked it with a return to Egypt. Scholars suggest that Hosea said this at least in part as a way of saying the exodus will be negated. His references to Judah are said to have either been redacted back in or he saw the same or a similar fate awaiting them, maybe 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Hope that helped.

spin · 03-21-2002, 03:26 AM

Bartok,

Thanks, it was the confusion in my mind when you mentioned Babylon. That was the crux of the problem. Once you cleared that up, everything else followed!

Dating is a very difficult issue and it seemed you had some indication on Hosea that I hadn't seen.

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03-20-2002, 02:04 AM	#31
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	BTW - I failed to note that Dr. Halpern wrote the article referenced above back in 1992, i.e., a decade ago. I do not know when he would now date the advent of monotheism. ------------------------------- The last I heard, a few years ago, he hadn't.

03-20-2002, 06:33 AM	#32
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Some days back Bartok wrote: ----------------------------- the story of Jesus' family fleeing to Egypt and coming back to Egypt comes with a reference to a verse in Hosea: "out of Egypt I have called my son." It has been found that the writer of Hosea was actually speaking about the part of Israel that went to Egypt during the Babylonian exile. ----------------------------- While I agree with the first part, that Tanakh "prophecies" for particular situations were simple reused not taking notice of the original contexts of the prophecies (though this can be seen in Dead Sea Scrolls as well), the second part, which seems reasonable, is stated as though fact. Bartok, is there actually any strong evidence for dating the Hosea prophesies to the time when Judah was conquered by Babylon? Hosea does speak of Israel and Ephraim and not Judah. I have the tendency when I see both Assyria and Egypt mentioned together to think of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic empires who were haggling over Palestine during the third century BCE, but I haven't given the issue of dating Hosea serious thought.

03-20-2002, 06:19 PM	#33
Bartok Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: St. Louis Posts: 21	Spin, the reason the book of Hosea does not mention Judah is because it isn't where the prophet prophesied (that was silly wording, wasn't it?). Hosea is thought to be a prophet in the northern kingdom Israel. There are references to three Judean kings in 1:1-Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah-but this is theorized to have been added later. I should have mentioned Assyria, not Babylon. The thought is that Hosea apparently foresaw bad things ahead with the Assyrian presence and linked it with a return to Egypt. Scholars suggest that Hosea said this at least in part as a way of saying the exodus will be negated. His references to Judah are said to have either been redacted back in or he saw the same or a similar fate awaiting them, maybe 6 of one, half dozen of the other. Hope that helped.

03-21-2002, 03:26 AM	#34
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Bartok, Thanks, it was the confusion in my mind when you mentioned Babylon. That was the crux of the problem. Once you cleared that up, everything else followed! Dating is a very difficult issue and it seemed you had some indication on Hosea that I hadn't seen.

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