Lizard

Hey, don't you know what the argument is? Evolution never happened. God poofed each new version of the original Kinds into existence (I guess He poofed the previous models out of existence, too, but we don't hear much about that.).

Why He poofed more than 20 versions of elephants into existence, then poofed out all but three (or is it four now?) out of existence is unexplained. Whimsy?

Mageth

Whimsy?

Intelligent design, but poor execution?

GeoTheo

There is some controversy about that issue among creationists. Hugh Ross, and Old earth progressive creationist rejects that hypothesis because it clearly implies evolution. When I was sorting through all this last year, when I was debating here and began to cave a little, the thought occured to me that if you combine Hugh Ross' view of the age of the Earth/cosmology (which is not his but the accepted view of geologists and astronomers in general) and the view of AIG that all creatures descend from a handfull of forms on the Ark, you get most of the basic assumptions of evolution.
I then decided to take a year long hiatus.

Blinn

Oh, but keep in mind, that this only happens within "kinds" - because there is some genetic barrier (yet to be defined by creationists) that prevents evolution between kinds.

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Zetek ]</p>

Blinn

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Kudos to Scigirl, on yet another excellent post. Wish I had your patience...

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Albion

This evidence has to be discounted, doesn't it, because the alternative is to accept it, and you know that's never going to happen. I'm just waiting for the time when some enterprising scientist actually does what all the creationists are sneering about and creates a prokaryotic cell in the lab and then watches it divide, form a population, and evolve. That's the point at which this particular creationist demand will grow wings like the goalposts and all of a sudden the creation of cellular life will be deemed irrelevant because it doesn't prove that that's how it happened in the wild without all the help from controlled conditions and so forth. The next step after showing it happening in the wild is that this doesn't prove that it happened billions of years ago. As you said, the real issue here has nothing to do with science.

scigirl

Hello Geo,

I've been meaning to address this post of yours for some time now. . .

But why does this particular similarity also leave an explanation for how it occured?

Here's another (in)famous scigirl analogy:

Let's say you post the following amazing argument say, about the football team that my new hometown is obsessed with:

I think that the Denver Broncos have the best runningbacks ever because I say so.

GeoTheo

Then 10 minutes later, I post the same amazing argument, but with a small modification:

[quote]I think that the Denver Broncos have the best running backs ever because I said so.

Scigirl

You naturally accuse me of copying your post, changing a couple letters, and claiming it as mine.

Then, I claim back that I made this post all by myself, independently, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with your post.

If I am right, then why in the name of John Elway would the [quote] thingee be in my post? No you can't prove that I clicked on the quote function to copy your argument. But the evidence is pretty strong, no, of not only my plagiarism, but also exactly how I plagiarized you??

That, indeed, is how I see the chimp-chromosome fusion event. Our chromosome 2 looks very much like two chromosomes from a chimp, if you look at the G banding patterns, lengths, and other overall features. Just like "my" broncos argument looks very similar to yours.

Then when you look at the chromosome in more detail, there is evidence of the mechanism for the fusion.

scigirl

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

Scigirl! Scigirl!
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

We're cluttering the field here quite messily. Too much to read through to get to the good stuff.

Formal debate?

scigirl

Thanks Jesus,

(Whoa, catholic youth group flashbacks )

Um, I'm already doing a formal debate with GeoTheo, which I have been slacking on. But maybe someday. . .

scigirl

KeithHarwood

Nope. The argument will be that we had to do it in the laboratory therefore it needed intelligent design therefore God Did It.