Ted Hoffman

Thank you all. Will try 2 keep u posted - wedding photos? Of course, of course.

pescifish

Congratulations, Intensity!

Eleutheria

Engagement?! Are you sure? I certainly hope your decision was based on logic, not mindless emotion. Or pretentious comments from some people in this thread. If I were you, I wouldn�t rush things. But if all's well, then congratulations!

Pescifish was logical: the trip to the park prior to her first leaving, her call the night before she left asking for her bible back, her 3 months away, her decision to take on another long distance position, her excuse that she needs a ring to be convinced of a commitment, the several days of delay before she agreed to get together after a long absence�Not to mention that she called the other man during her visit with you, her aloofness to your emotional pains.

These are good reasons to be worried. It is logical. Were you making a mountain out of a molehill? No, no. I find some statements in this thread illogical, at any rate, offensive. You were called �obsessive.� You were called wife-beater. Some people here have advised you not to demand explanation from your girlfriend. Be deceived, they implied. When you were actually deceived, they accused you of being distrustful. If your girlfriend was most likely weary of the relationship, then her deception was justified. Justify her laziness, her lack of responsibility as a girlfriend, above all, her deceptions (she did apologize.) They also blamed on your obsessive way of tracking your girlfriend. Because of this, they asserted, she was enamored with another man. I ask you. Is all this logical?

If she WAS loyal, it doesn�t mean she IS loyal. To undermine this reasoning would be illustrative of logical fallacy.

A girl wears a sexy dress. She fingers along the line of a g-string, but decides to return it into the drawer. She perfumes herself; she blushes in the mirror, and exits nervously. Through all this her boyfriend watches her. She meets the transient �good man,� and chats with him for hours at length. Why not? He is a decent man. He has wife and children. Why can�t a woman have conversation with another man? If she were with her boyfriend for a long time, why would she deceive him?

If the girl actually deceives him, it isn�t her fault. It is the boyfriend�s fault. If he proves innocent, then it�s the relationship�s fault. Do not accuse her. Do not demand explanation from her (demanding is controlling). Pretend that you do not deserve truth. Sweet talk with her. And who knows, like a manna fallen from the sky, she might confess. Above all, even if in her confession she has apologized for her deceptions, she remains faultless.

Two contradictory claims observable in this thread: if your girlfriend was with you for a long time, then it follows that she is loyal. If she was with you for a long time, then it follows that she is weary of it, and therefore becomes disloyal.

I am not nurturing any aversion to your girlfriend, alas, fianc�e. But I do believe that sinister actions convey what might be sinister. My opinion is based on logic. Nothing less�Your fianc�e is independent. Independent people are unique. They are the most brave. They aren�t afraid to explore unchartered terrorities. We look at them in amazement. They are adventurous. Above all, they are free. Right? But doesn�t independence consist of a flight from responsibility? Your fiancee, from the point of view of her actions, appears a tad irresponsible, doesn�t she? All independence means a rejection of dependence.

Ask yourself. Is everything solved? Will she deceive you again? Was she really waiting for your proposal? Was her severance with the other man something to do with her love for you? Or quilt? Or simply because the other man was unavailable?

My friend owns a faithful Italian Mastiff. The dog weights approximately 215 lbs and he eats raw meat for breakfast. My friend said, to discipline the dog you would have to hit it (he said �it� not he) with a rigid broomstick. Hit hard, he said, until it weeps. Then yell in its ear, �No!� Then embrace the dog, and spoil it with raw meat that gushes with lukewarm blood, and make it happy. There will be no doubt, he said, the dog will become �intensely loyal� to you. It�ll follow you everywhere. It�ll whimper when you are gone. The most obedient dog. The most convenient. Might I ask you, Intensity, to contemplate this: are you the mastiff?

Those who rejoice in watching men crash and burn are the worst people to ask for advice. But if all�s well, then congratulations!

Ted Hoffman

Helen,
Thank you so much for your answer and explanation. I really appreciate it a lot. I told her we will talk about it. I will use some of what you have shared with me here.
Thank you.

Ted Hoffman

Euletheria,
I am very grateful for your advice. You seem to have thoroughly read "my story" and thought about it. For that, I am grateful.

Its weird because I agree with you on EVERY point. I have thought about this A LOT. I decided to go ahead and get engaged because a part of me thought all this ruckus was because she wasnt getting any act that indicated I wanted/ was ready to "commit" - maybe subconsciously, that gave her some moral highground to "fool around" - that logic did not need to add up to me - I just needed to appreciate that it was a possibility - maybe she was angry at me for that.

I have no way to know how much she is seeing the other guy or if there is any emotional entanglement. I still have questions (like when we were tackling the issue, I asked her "how old is he" she said she did not know - and then when I never got to meet the guy because he was "busy". So all I know is the guy was "mature". Such a small matter blows up when I ask "How come she could go for coffee and then when I am to meet him, he is suddenly 'busy'"? Coz I wanted to meet him to confirm a number of things.

So I decided to just trust her. I had no evidence that she was dogging me anyway, I just had doubts and suspicions and its still pretty plausible that when she "ignored" me, she was simply busy with her work. Other issues came up like there was a time she said something in the lines of: "I met him the way I also met you, so if he is bad, I will be the one to stop the friendhip - just trust me" - how could she dare compare me to him? I wondered?
But I had to learn to be "strong" and act contrary to my emotions - run away.

She acted all weird and it really confused and hurt me. But I decided to for once, act on faith in my life. Either way, I am stuck - I have to trust her because I cant always be with her. Whats important is I made a mental note not to tolerate this kind of activity if it happens again. So in a sense, I forgave her - for all that. For the sake of continuity and because it seems the most judicious thing to do at the time - what with the lack of "hard evidence".

I dont think the bible thing was anything indicative. She borrowed my copy of The Jesus Puzzle, if that is anything to go by and EVERY time she spent at my place on a saturday, she did not go to church - so I am not too worried about our religious differences.

I also tried to look at if from a more "tolerant" viewpoint - maybe she is simply in denial and I would be better off if I let her have the friendship with the guy to its logical conclusion - so if it develops into an affair now, the better, it will be a learning experience for me - about her character. If she breaks it off when he becomes obvious, then she will have learnt that such relationships are not good. I have to give her room to grow up.

She cant live my experience and it isnt exactly fair to force her to end a friendship with someone I am not sure she is involved with (this would be the very definition of morbid jealousy).

And worse still, I can force her into a situation where she is forced to hide the friendship from me and yet she can still end up having an affair (when I noticed recently that she puts off her phone when she is with me, I noted that perhaps its too late - perhaps I have already scared her so much she cant be "open" with me) perhaps out of resentment about my "controlling" tendencies or just to take a breath of the air of freedom - if I am that suffocating.

So either way, I had to let go. It was my only way. It was the only way I had. And I think its the only way we all have. If she is indeed serious she will be mine. If she is not, things will work themselves out and I will know.

But even while I was letting go, I decided I need to get married - and the only woman I love and want is her that is why I proposed. The proposal is also an indication that its time she becomes very serious because it means she will be making a decision soon - its also a signal that I am very serious so this "where is the ring" talk will be over. So if she is not sure, or if she is involved with someone else, beleive me my sensors are on full alert. Any signal I will pick though I may not act on it.

At the end of the day, if I make a mistake, its not the end of the world. I will have tried, with my fallible abilities, to hold onto the relationship I have with the woman I love. I had doubts, and they had possible explanations. I could not decide clearly based on suspicions alone. So I relied on her "was loyal" to make a decision hoping that she "is loyal".

I agree with you totally about the independence being equivalent to irresposibility. I for one do not call my female friends (except when extremely necessary) because I know that strictly speaking, I dont need them.

But of course some people dont agree. Lets see how things turn
out.

Pseudonymph

Sorry to butt in again intensity, but all these points by Eleutheria are indeed valid ones. The comments from the "YOU GO GIRL!" type of people are not going to show you the truth. The simple fact is, a lot of things didn't and still don't add up. Are you really comfortable with that?

People often forget that marriage is intended to be for life, and these are all telling signs of a personality not easily gotten rid of.

Yes it is....good observation.

This is true and something I think is far too often overlooked.

I used to be one of those people...but through my friends and my love life, I have seen how disastrous that attitude can really be. It can ruin people, and relationships, and people who live that kind of life, hating men(or people in general) are never trustworthy people.

On to your post, Intensity....

Oh no....I was waiting to hear this. So you didn't get engaged because you love her and want to spend the rest of your life with her? You did it because of pressure? Am I wrong?

Intensity...my friend, in the name of all things holy PLEASE WAKE UP! Look at what she is doing! If she doesn't want you to meet this guy then there is a terribly obvious problem here. She doesn't want her two stories to conflict.

I'm dubious this guy even knows you exist, despite what she's told you she's said to him.



If you are willing to put yourself through that...you are a stronger person than I.

Wow...intensity, she doesn't want this guy to call when you are around. Plain and simple. Again, I would put money on it that he doesn't even know you exist, unless YOU YOURSELF have spoken to him before and made who you are known to him. Have you done that?

It's the only woman you love right NOW. Give it some more time. True love really does wait, to make sure things are right with you two and with the world. You need time to cement a solid foundation for your love to grow. If you cheat yourself and her out of that solid foundation and love, you will invite disater.

Why would you not act on it? She's given you every reason to be suspicous. Despite what some people will tell you, even though you are just a "pig headed wife beater" you still have feelings and concerns that need to be answered. You are a person too!

Depending on who you are, this could be a healthy way to approach it. It doesn't work for everyone, but for some people, this is a good way to approach different sex friendships.

I'm not sure what else to say...I wish you only the best of luck. Please keep us all updated.

Ted Hoffman

Pseudonymph
No I am not. I am now beginning to see I wanted to beleive I was part of the problem in order to avoid tackling the problem on another level so I was deflecting the blame back to myself.
But its still possible I just saw things the wrong way.
Maybe it was just a phase for me or her or both of us.

I agree, its just that I am not sure she has done anything wrong yet.
I have no evidence all I have detected are signs of danger. I thought I could have been a contributor to them. That remains a possibility. So I decided to be the change I would like to see in her: by setting an example.

It had reached the point she seemed "harrased" by the many issues I was picking up with her. I dont want to make her feel like she is sitting on a hot pan.
As much as I agree with the sentiment, we must also agree that human beings (if the people who have attacked me for being "suffocating" and controlling are anything to go by) need some space and find that sometimes love (and emotional dependence) can be suffocating. I would rather I depend on her and she depends on me both as a friend, a lover, confidant etc but she wants to have friends with another male, what can I do about that?
I can put my foot down and force her or break up. If she acquiesces, you know that relationship wont work: the resentment, I will be bullying her, I will be feeding some form of neurosis (morbid jealousy, control freak) etc - at the same time, I will be "weakening" myself, not empowering myself and its those kind of relationships that have someone flinging themselves off the top of a skyscraper when jilted. So some emotional distance may be required for personal security and psychological survival.

I also have to respect the fact that she is an adult and that its possible to be friends with a man and not be involved with them romantically. And that she also has an opinion on this matter.
Some can have male friends and not be involved. Some cannot. I think most of them lead to affairs.
But I am willing to let her show me I am wrong and that she belongs to the rarer species of women. To refuse is simply to be dogmatic.

I actually did not understand who was being referred to here. She is not a man-hater far as I know. At the very worst, she is trying to have her cake and eat it.

Very. There was the "part of me" part in my statement. I had the intentions all along - I had it planned already. Then this "thing" showed up. I decided to go ahead and even hoped to kill many birds with that single stone.

Partly, I also decided that I could also go ahead and we could make things work along the way. I thought it would have been too easy to use this as an excuse for not proposing and hoping that our relationship can work better.
Now that I have done it I will try my damnedest to make things better. At the same time, I have ensured that whatever emotional "issues" she is having, my "lack of commitment" is not one of them.

So I have peeled one layer of probable causes off. We can see clearer now. Dont you remember some people here went as far as stating that if they were in a relationship with me, they would wonder what that relationship has for them?

What I am doing is that at the end of the day, I will be sure to state that whatever made the relationship fail, if it does, I am not one of them. So I looked at myself and her and the signals she had given and knew one thing she needed was a sign of my total commitment.

She got it.
<Intensity glances at his checklist>

You and I think alike because that is what I thought. I actually wanted to meet him more so to see how she would react to my fiancee's sister (introductions). Coz she had said that when she went for the date, she went with her sister. I also wanted to check out his age and for those basic features that attract most women to men: great personality, handsome etc. I wanted to check out whether he was in her "league" and whether there was a generation gap as she had led me to beleive.
But when she said we wouldnt be meeting, I did not want to press the issue - but the alarm bells went off: I want to focus on winning back her trust. I dont want to give her any signs that I still have issues over that matter. I wanted to leave it entirely up to her to either continue or cease that "friendship" if it continues, I am confident that it will show up.

At the end of the day I also have my pride. I cant let myself be rattled over every suspicious thing to do. I have to get control of my SELF.
She could be playing mind games with me. I dont want to be that mastiff that was mentioned earlier. I will just be vigilant.

This is a painful but possible thing. I have to live with that for now.

No, no, am not. I am just stepping back emotionally to try and get a better perspective.

Of course not. Time has a role to play in all this P. We must allow time to answer some of the questions we have.

I am waiting. I just wanted to pass a message of my commitment to the relationship. I want to work on this and if I have my insecurities, I dont want that to be the load that will drag this relationship.

I will not act on it until its clear that something is going on.
As things stand there are many possible explanations including myself being insecure.
Lets be patient. I am slowly coming on top of my emotions. And if something is going on on her side, its either growing bigger or smaller. Either way, I will be able to tell.

Thank you for thinking about me, I am so touched. I have just been learning, with a great deal of difficulty, not to think about myself, because I have been thinking I have my own "issues" which have clouded the whole matter.
I might go crazy if I think very much about myself. Remember I said I was so happy to see her dance?

Now I am thinking: when will I dance?

News Flash
See, there was a time she really wanted us to get married and start our life together. But I needed a job etc. Now I am working and I have educated my brothers and got them jobs and they have moved out. The right time to get married right?. So I proposed.

After the two days of visible excitement, when we started talking about the wedding plans etc.

Some background: I am from a tribe whose cultures are unpopular - wife inheritance, polygamy, disposessing the wife of the deceased husbands property(ok, this is not a culture, but people of my tribe are notorious for this - its a way of "clipping" the womans wings so she doesnt leave them home to look for another man - I think) etc. Our culture demands that I do not get married unless my elder brother(s) are. The two of my elder brothers preceeding me are not.

So I would be violating our cultural norms if I were to get married this year, and my siblings will frown on it. But I know those rules can be violated and I am ready to do so - and they know if I decide to do that, they will just have to go along even if begrudgingly - including my mum.

So she has been over the years asking me and probing me about my position about our cultural practices etc. And I have told her I dont subscribe to them. So basically, I allayed all her fears that my culture will not mess up with our relationship/ marriage.

If I were to have my way, I would have preferred, she moves in with me, we organise ourselves and maybe get married in a year or two.

She refused - the living in sin crap. So I said fine, we can get married legally, with the witnesses etc - if her parents were to refuse to "bless" the marriage on account of my tribe.

So now I have proposed. And I am asking her what her parents are to expect. She talks of me taking my folks to her place to meet them (hotel expenses and transport swiftly come in), maybe twice then some brideprice etc etc, then later, a wedding, the honeymoon and then we will have been "properly" married. My folks live many hundreds of miles from her place.

I go ballistic because Its simply too bloody-fucking expensive. I am starting my masters this year and I am saving almost the whole of my salary towards that. I have a sister in school I am paying her fees, and I am taking care of my mother. I have to pay rent etc. So I ask her how in Gods name am I supposed to afford all those trips and rigmarole?

I tell her I expected that after I had met her dad, we could get married legally, and she moves in as we clear up the customary requirements of the two families meeting - she says no, her culture does not allow that. And that we can get a wedding later when we can afford it.

She says no, if I cant do as is required by their customs then I am not ready to get married. (I really boil inside - how dare she tell me what I am or am nor ready to do and she is wearing my ring?)
So I ask her - how come "culture" is suddenly so important?
She doesnt answer.

I tell her if I am going to be disqualified by her and her parents from marrying her on cultural grounds, that is a different matter but its not fair to force me to meet all those demands before I can get a wife.

Because I am ready and I can support a wife. And that those outdated cultures were not set in a setting similar to ours where intermarriages are taking place and the two families are worlds apart.

She goes quiet - she does that whe she is angry. I think about it and decide that because of the total control her parents have on her and the way their approval is important to her, perhaps she thinks the only proper way for her to get married is in the manner they will demand - so that she can get their blessings.

In the meantime, she tells her dad she is engaged to me (the demon boyfriend she was ordered to abandon 6 years ago) - he shows no visible disagreement with it, he just tells her to inform her mum also.

So later, I meet a friend and he tells me I dont have to rack my brains over the financial stumbling block - he and I can call our other friends and they can contribute money for my wedding and all that other cultural crap. And he offers to chair my "wedding commitee" [heh, heh isnt living in the third world fun?]

So I call her and say hey, we can still get married this year. I think I can raise the money. She says she is okay with it but she prefers that we get married early next year.

She had mentioned earlier that she wants to "settle" on her career, so I say next year is fine but is it okay if we do it late this year? She says its okay but she doesnt think we can do it.

In the meantime, she suggests that I get one of my brothers to live with me and help me (cook etc) coz I go home late after work (10 pm) and I often am too tired and lacking any appetite to cook.
I know getting a brother of mine to live with me is easy but shaking them off is hell. I want to settle down into my life.

In the meantime, this hedging is not at all surprising to me because I knew when she started to talk about a "good man" she sounded like a woman who had been seeking for a man (otherwise whats so fucking significant about meeting a "good man"? I remember, telling her that good man has a wife and you have a boyfriend), so it was like she is not sure/ content to have me: she still wanted a "good man" at the side - testing the waters, exploring the options available to her (besides me) etc.

Today, she wrote me a message: that she was talking to a married friend who told her that she was engaged for two years before she got married, so she thinks we should wait for two years. And that she will write in a letter and explain why.

So, I sit back and say, well, well, well. Two years.

We are talking about a woman who strongly beleives if she gets her first child at 30, her chances of getting one of those cancers (cant remember whether its cervical or breast) increases twofold or tenfold.
We are talking about a woman who, just three years back, wanted to get married at 27 and have her first kid when she is 29 - we wanted at least 1.5 years without a baby. We are talking about a woman who said(many times) she is ready to be married to me, all I needed to do was say "I am ready now" and it would be "now". So I have been preparing. And now I am ready.

She will be 27 in 38 days.
Now she is talking two more years.

I told her two years is fine and that I know she needs to settle.

I know I need to sit down and think because I really wanted to get married as soon as possible. Latest November this year. At the same time, I know if I scheme things and get her to marry me this year against her "wishes"(timewise) - I will be marrying an unwilling partner. I want it (the date) as much as possible to come from her so I want to see how far away she can push it and perhaps along the way I might make a decision concerning how long I can wait.

Two years of this life that I am not very comfortable with...
Maybe this is the time to discover myself and an emotional being. Maybe its s blessing in disguise.

What I know for sure is that if something is indeed going on, I will know in due course. Things have a way of coming out.

I feel no need to make a decision now. I feel comfortable to occupy this "observer" position and I can see so many possibilities. I have to learn to hold myself and allow the wave function to collapse.

Ted Hoffman

I have given this further thought and as I was talking to one of my brothers yesterday, I realized I have been ignoring two things:

1. I have not been giving due weight to what I think.
2. I have no biological clock to worry about.

I gave her all the power by being impatient and by giving undue weight to her opinions and desires. And she pushed me to the wall and had the guts to make unrealistic demands.
I have now decided I will ONLY do what I feel I need to do IRRESPECTIVE of what her parents feel, or what the society feels or even what she feels. I am ready to organise a wedding and sign legal marital contracts - that, to me is ENOUGH indication that I am ready to get married and I am serious about getting married. The rest is superfluous and unnecessary.

She will have to decide whether she wants to get married or not.

I will update you in two or three months. Thanks for the support.

Ted Hoffman

In the meantime, my main focus is how to live alone and try to be happy by myself. And I have it figured out exactly how to go about that.

Buffman

In the meantime, my main focus is how to live alone and try to be happy by myself. And I have it figured out exactly how to go about that.

Every time you look in the mirror, like the person looking back at you. That starts with being honest with yourself.

I had been waiting for you to explain the tribal (cultural ) differences between your family and hers.

Maybe its s blessing in disguise.

Yes!