Ab_Normal

Absent a definition of "worship", I can only say that my belief was very strong. I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school. When I was thirteen (or thereabouts), I had a very emotional response during my Confirmation, and was positive for about a year that I was going to join holy orders after high school.

I grew out of it.

GeoTheo

I myself did not become a Christian because I feared death. I became a Christian because I did not like myself and wanted to become a better person. I guess I could have convinced myself I was a good person by lowering my standards but this seemed unappealing to me. I met a person I truly believed to be good and questioned him about it. He explained how it was totally tied in to his being a Christian. I then prayed with him and accepted Christ as my Savior and became a Christian. I then experienced growth in my life as a person. Other people also seemed to notice it, also.
I find believing I am going to heaven comforting, but I honestly don't think I became a Christian due to a fear of death as the main reason. So I reject fear of death as being the fundamental reason for belief in God.
I actually had considered suicide previously to becoming a Christian.

MOJO-JOJO

Sorry Geo....most of us ex-christians were in fact "true christians". We believed through faith that we were worshipping a 'real'god, because we wantedto believe we were, just as you continue to do. We simply know NOW that this was just a supersticious, pie-in-the-sky hope, so we NOW realize that we were only 'pretending' to worship. Helps us to cope with this past embarassment of ours a little better.

Right now, you aren't 'pretending' to worship, because you have yourself brainwashed in to believing that you are worshipping a real, invisible deity, in spite of all the evidence and reasoning against such a silly notion. Because no one can demonstrate for you that a non-existant thing truly and unequivocally does not exist, you are able to keep your 'faith' propped up and convince yourself that WE are lying by telling you that religious faith is simply worshipping something that does not exist.

What we now understand is that this 'worship' is no more than a shared love, belief and philosophy of life and living in the form of an invisble friend that you all adore...Jesus. The only true difference amongst you is how much "doubt" exists in the back of each of your minds during your weekly rituals of supersticious supplication. This directly effects the level to which you are able to genuinely believe that you are worshipping something real.

freemonkey

OK, now I'm curious. I hate to pry, but why did you not like yourself? How old were you? Did you have any religious beliefs at the time?

Lowering your standards in what way?

Suppose you'd have met someone you believed to be truly good, and they were a muslim? Or a Buddhist? Or *gasp* an atheist?

Plump-DJ

Mojo Jojo..

I think there's plenty of reasons for considering the silly notion or at least to make it rationaly justifiable (worship and all) and if one cannot show that belief or faith is irational well I say good luck to 'em.

And besides who's better off in the end? Ignorance is bliss, can I argue with that when i'm dead and don't give a poo anymore.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Plump-DJ ]</p>

MOJO-JOJO

You're always welcome to advance those "plenty of reasons" for debate here, but be willing to objectively examine the rebuttals.

Your most obvious and oft used rebuttal, Pascal's Wager, has been argued and refuted to death around here, Plump-DJ. The point is, non-theists and ex-theists would rather NOT spend their lives committing intellectual dishonesty about 'faith' and 'belief'. Those who decide to stay within their religious cocoons continue to go on believing ANYthing they want. But I feel that you are spreading a lie, that you believe is true, to yourselves, your children and others, as all religious people do.

Religion is nothing more than man-made philosophy that is either indoctrinated or adopted by one in order to create a mental state of existence that allows you to share your burdens, have hope for an afterlife, shed your guilt, and browbeat everyone that doesn't think as you do.

A billion christians believing in an invisible, mythical deity or ghost does not make it real. A billion muslims believing in an Allah that hates westerners, does not make it real. A billion mormons believing in the Angel Moroni and his prophecies to Joseph Smith does not make it real. A billion children believing in Santa and the Tooth Fairy does NOT make them real. They exist solely in their imaginations and their hearts, which is the ONLY place God and Christ exist. Maybe you should let Bishop John Spong explain it to you. Read his essays at "belief.net".

Neither can I disprove the existence of your ghost (other than through a discussion from logic), because I can not SHOW you that something that doesn't exist isn't really there. YOU will still "see" and "believe" whatever you choose to, regardless of any contrary evidence (what you call "deceit" of the devil).

In the end, the evidence tells us that we will simply all be dead and gone, and all you christians won't be around to gloat about it afterall (as I often heard so many dream of doing in Sunday school classes )

And most likely, you nor your conscious will be around to give a "poo" about me, you or anyone, anyway. But I will have lived a life happy and free of any supersticious worries about "being judged" and "what if God sends me to HELL!!", and I will have loved friends, family, life, and explored this world openly and honestly, in a spirit of truth and daily joy, and in complete awe of the "sweet miracle of life" (Geddy Lee of Rush~~'Vapor Trails'). More importantly, I will have shared that with and passed it on to my children, so that they can live their lives fully, openly and honestly, without fears of supersticious reprisal in the end.

And so I ask you Plump-DJ, why would a just and loving god, if he really DID exist, then decide to condemn me to eternal suffering and torture, simply because I used the intellect and reason that HE gave me, to live my life as a free-minded, loving human being? Does it REALLY make any freakin' sense?? Sounds man-made to me, and I only hope that you all will "get it" before you ruin your lives believing in myths elevated to reality, for no other reason than teaching you how to be good and obediant, and giving all your extra hard earned cash to keep "Religion, Inc." in business.

Edited to note that I presumed you were a theist at first, and responded accordingly, but after re-reading your comment, your belief-status is ambiguous. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>