FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > IIDB ARCHIVE: 200X-2003, PD 2007 > IIDB Philosophical Forums (PRIOR TO JUN-2003)
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 05:55 AM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-27-2002, 03:33 PM   #11
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: On the periphery
Posts: 2
Post

If you would like to investigate some Catholic doctrines, or the justifications for them... check out Augustine.

St. Augustine's Confessions and His Early Works both lay out a good deal about belief and behavior within the Catholic religion. You might also look at the Early Christian Fathers (Richardson), which outlines ideas from many of the early fathers such as Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr.

If you are interested in the Trinitarian issue (how jeebus was divine), you can read The Trinitarian Controversy (Rusch), Or you can just do a search for "The Council of Nicea."

You might also do a search for "The Council of Chalcedon" or "The Council of Trent." (The latter generally tries to explain how the RCC is the ultimate authority in the world. yay! global domination!)

The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings (Ehrman) is also great. It explains the historical context in which the Bible was written, showing that most of it is explicable outside of the realm of Christian faith. Furthermore, it shows the progression of the writings into a high Christology, one that was not there in the beginning. Example: Out of the gospels, Mark was written first, c. 65-72 CE. It portrays JC as a man (Messiah = human (Hebrew) king). Matt. and Luke came next in time, c. 80 or 85 CE, at a medium Christology (holy man). And then John, c. 90 or 95 CE, which portrays JC as an outright divine being (pure Christ = spiritual (Greek)king). The book does a much better job of outlining it, and furthermore it supports itself well. I give this one additional high marks for easily keeping the reader's interest.

You might also look into The Nag Hammadi Library (the dead sea scrolls). These are the writings of one of the groups (Gnostics) competing with proto-orthodox Xianity. It would therefore show that Catholicism was not the only interpretation of JC's life back in the day. (They are more like Buddhists).

If you are looking to refute some of the RCC's practices, look into the Reformation writers... Erasmus, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and (again) St. Ignatius. Erasmus and Ignatius were Catholic reformers within the church, however the others are outside of it altogether. Luther, for example, explains away most of the sacraments in his attempt to understand God.

I guess that is all I have about Catholicism. Let me know if you would like any other suggestions for books about religion in general, or in other strains, or for other philosophies. I hope this helps. Enjoy!

Lackwit

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Lackwit ]</p>
Lackwit is offline  
Old 03-29-2002, 11:03 AM   #12
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Daydream:
<strong>Once again, I would like to THANK everyone who responded to my questions. Everything has been helpful.
As of today, I am being frowned upon for refusing to attend a sun. mass with the family. I can understand (a little) their perspective, yet I feel like, if (or when I have in the past) complied with others feelings, I am (at the same time) denying my own personal beliefs. I am not a catholic, and I also do not support/believe in any churches. I honestly have not been very LOUD in my oppinions of this- because I don't want to deal with all the narrow-mindedness of those who will think me "evil" for not believing in "god." It is "easier" to keep my mouth shut, yet I feel it is (also) just a matter of time, until it is obvious. I do claim to be an agnostic to some, but lately I'm realizing that I (deep down) am a hard-core atheist. It is ironic that I spent most of my life being a loud, obnoxious "christian", and now I prefer to be a quiet, keep to myself atheist. For a while I had 2 conflicting worldviews, that were constantly at war with eachother. But now I feel at peace with myself, and the way that I veiw life. I have just started to "say out-loud" what I believe in, and it's been interesting to hear the responses coming from most of the people in my life (fundi- christians, and catholics.) In a way, I think that it would (almost) be easier, to be a very evil, mean discusting person- but still claim to believe in a "god", than to ever declare what I do now. This is all new to me, and it's great to be free to express my true feelings- AND to find others with similar thinking. Thanks!!

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Daydream ]</strong>
Daydream is offline  
Old 03-29-2002, 11:22 AM   #13
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Posts: 136
Post

Quote:
Originally posted by Daydream:
<strong>Once again, I would like to THANK everyone who responded to my questions. Everything has been helpful.
As of today, I am being frowned upon for refusing to attend a sun. mass with the family. I can understand (a little) their perspective, yet I feel like, if (or when I have in the past) complied with others feelings, I am (at the same time) denying my own personal beliefs. I am not a catholic, and I also do not support/believe in any churches. I honestly have not been very LOUD in my oppinions of this- because I don't want to deal with all the narrow-mindedness of those who will think me "evil" for not believing in "god." It is "easier" to keep my mouth shut, yet I feel it is (also) just a matter of time, until it is obvious. I do claim to be an agnostic to some, but lately I'm realizing that I (deep down) am a hard-core atheist. It is ironic that I spent most of my life being a loud, obnoxious "christian", and now I prefer to be a quiet, keep to myself atheist. For a while I had 2 conflicting worldviews, that were constantly at war with eachother. But now I feel at peace with myself, and the way that I veiw life. I have just started to "say out-loud" what I believe in, and it's been interesting to hear the responses coming from most of the people in my life (fundi- christians, and catholics.) In a way, I think that it would (almost) be easier, to be a very evil, mean discusting person- but still claim to believe in a "god", than to ever declare what I do now. This is all new to me, and it's great to be free to express my true feelings- AND to find others with similar thinking. Thanks!!

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Daydream ]</strong>

I wish I could speak from experience so that I might give you advice, but my dealings with theist have always been outside the bonds of family, with the exception of my grandmother who is more of a deist than anything else. I've only met my grandparents on my mother's side a few times, they have always frowned on me and my father (and in many ways my mother) because we represent a turning from their hindu heritage. All I can say is that it's better to be honest with others and them love or hate you for who you are than to live a lie, at least such would be a better path for me. Maybe pretending to be something you're not works for some, though ultimately they become a puppet to their false image. Consider your choices carefully, and as Socrates said, "Know Thyself."
Technos is offline  
Old 03-29-2002, 03:15 PM   #14
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: On the periphery
Posts: 2
Post

Technos wrote:
I wish I could speak from experience so that I might give you advice, but my dealings with theist have always been outside the bonds of family, with the exception of my grandmother who is more of a deist than anything else. I've only met my grandparents on my mother's side a few times, they have always frowned on me and my father (and in many ways my mother) because we represent a turning from their hindu heritage. All I can say is that it's better to be honest with others and them love or hate you for who you are than to live a lie, at least such would be a better path for me. Maybe pretending to be something you're not works for some, though ultimately they become a puppet to their false image. Consider your choices carefully, and as Socrates said, "Know Thyself."

Daydream,

Much like Technos, I have not had to handle very much familial tension in this area. My mother is a Methodist, but she generally respects my position as I try to do with her. My father was an atheist for many years, though I have never been very close with him so I did not learn this until I was about 21, a point by which I had already determined my general view. (genetics?) He is more into "alien life forms" now. *loud sigh* So, my brother and I were raised between the Methodist (mother) and Baptist (step-father) churches, and my brother married a catholic. By this point (ten years later) he is back to a status of "non-believer" and I have been an atheist since I was fifteen, though I study cognition and religion. It's an all around strange situation. The point is, everyone has their own values, regardless of these religious differences, which sometimes change.

Beyond that, all you can really do is figure out what YOU think. I totally agree with Technos, in that you should "know thyself." You cannot go wrong, because you will always know in your mind that you held to your beliefs. Your family is your family. In time they will learn to accept this about you. They will obviously not be happy about it, but the reason is because they worry for you falling from grace, an idea they will continue to bear. You certainly must take that to heart when problems come up and recognize they are showing you their love. However, you're going to have to learn to bite your tongue sometimes. As a wise prof said to me once, "do not ever try to strip someone of faith." Faith is a difficult factor to maintain, especially in the modern world. Look, for example, at the factors that have affected your decision. It is not necessarily your place to direct anyone in any specific direction. Those who will, come to their own in time. If they asks you questions, be honest but do not force it.

Above all, hold your ground, what you believe is just as important as what everyone else does.

Namaste, Lackwit
Lackwit is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:34 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.