Freethought & Rationalism Archive

American Agnostic · 02-23-2003, 06:12 AM

The bottom line is that over the last several hundred years (except for a few bumbs in the road) religion has been getting increasing liberalized. Many theists in the US today believe in god but think that we're on own when it comes to solving problems. The groups that represent the biggest threat today are among that minority that still clings to religion as it existed 150 or more years ago. Fundamentalists are the ones who cause all the trouble. The liberal majority isn't a threat. What is needed is better science education so people aren't so relient on there being a god. This is EXACTLY what the fundies in the US are attacking these days because it's such a threat to them. over the next few centuries, as scientific explainations continue to advance religion will continue to liberalize until the few remaining fundalmentalists are pushed into a corner away from the rest of society. Actually, even fundies have liberalized over the last few centuries. We no longer burn "witches".

SecularFuture · 02-25-2003, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kassiana
Do most of you believe the world is "OKAY" with theistic religion?

Kass: Yes. I wish that most of the fundamentalists in religion, politics, and social belief would disappear off the planet or convert to a more reasonable belief, of course, but theistic religion itself is not inherently harmful any more than a kitchen knife is inherently harmful. It's how it's USED that makes it dangerous.

Do you think it would be healthy for an adult, 21+, to hold to a firm belief in Santa Clause and/or The Tooth Fairy? If yes, why? If no, why?

SecularFuture · 02-25-2003, 10:40 PM

Quote:

"We no longer burn "witches"."

Only because its against the law now. They would probably still do it if there were no consequences.

Tercel · 02-27-2003, 02:22 AM

Okay SecularFuture you clearly have some serious issues that you need to deal with.

I would point out that you are committing a fallacy of over-generalisation. Your logic that "some theists did something bad, therefore Theism is bad" is absurd. Some humans have done bad stuff therefore humanity is completely evil and should be abolished... right? I hope you see the problem with this line of reasoning.

Quote:

* When the scientist discovered that the Earth was not the center of universe, who was there threatening the life of the scientist and forbidding the promotion of his/her founded discovery?
THE THEIST!
Why? Because it contradicted their unfounded beliefs!

It was the HUMANS! Humans are terrible with their awful unfounded beliefs. Overgeneralisation.
Some theists, yes: "THEISTS" in general? NO.

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* When the scientist discovered that humans were the result of an evolutionary process, who was there trying to ban the promotion of this founded discovery?
THE THEIST!
Why? Because it contradicted their unfounded beliefs!

See above.

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And, what does the theist want to replace founded, scientific, discoveries with? - Unfounded, magical, ignorant thinking! They have even killed us (freethinkers) for having the courage to think outside of their tiny, religious, boxes of mythology and superstition.

See above.

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By understanding the truths about our universe, we will be able to have more control with place in it. By understanding our bodies, we will be able to develop better medicines to fight off disease.

Obviously. I doubt any sane theist anywhere anytime would disagree.

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We still do not have a cure for cancer or A.I.D.S, and I blame the theist for this!

Yes, well, you clearly have issues.

People have been around for 300,000 years or so and not got anywhere with science 'till now. Within a mere 2000 years (with perhaps the majority of that wasted time by barbarians during the dark ages) Christianity has produced civilization as we know it with a degree of technology unsupassed in human history.

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If they would get out the way, or get with the program, we could have made a lot more progress with everything!

Yeah, right. You've had 300,000 years without Christianity and you didn't get anywhere.

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Moreover, I do not care if they are somewhat religious or extremely religious.

Hence your fallacious overgeneralisations above.

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They (theists) all need to be converted to a form of secularism, whether it is secular humanism, secular transhumanism, or just good ole� fashioned atheism. It doesn�t make any sense for grown people (adults) to hold serious to a belief in a supernatural superman! Its just crazy! Think about it!

It doesn't make any sense for grown people to assert that their island is the only one in the ocean just 'cos they can't see any others either. But you atheists are good at such crazy assertions that if you don't see it then it ain't there.

Quote:

HELP!

Yes, I think you do need it.

wildernesse · 02-27-2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
� I don't see how praying detracts from benevolent actions anymore than bathing does.�
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Believing in a universe that is 6,000 years old, and believing that evolution is a myth created by scientists, is holding back our progress. The more unified, and founded, our concepts are, the better our progress will be.

Whoa! Is there a connection between praying and believing in YEC and special creation? You haven't shown that, you're just hopping about. If this is supposed to be an example of how my theism holds back progress, then you're mistaken as I believe neither of these things.

Why don't you ask the people here who are atheists and not secular humanists why they are being illogical? I don't think that there are things that are "more logical"--you either have logic or illogic. Secular humanism can't be the "most logical" replacement of theism.

I don't think that theism is dangerous or brain-damaging--I *do* think that close-minded adherence to any ideas and an inability to consider that other people have different values and goals than yourself is dangerous. This is dangerous--whether you are a Christian or a Secular Transhumanist.

Quote:

And, what does the theist want to replace founded, scientific, discoveries with?

This is an absurd generalization. It makes me think of sentences like: And what does the depraved homosexual want to replace God-ordained and sanctioned families with? Why are those two statements similar? Because they are both demonizations of a group of people by playing on something that the speaker thinks the audience holds dear.

Are you ready to blame my employer (a Christian) for holding back science as she explores the theory of evolution? She is a Fellow of AAAS. Are you ready to blame her for wanting to replace scientific thinking with "magical" thinking?

--tibac

TomboyMom · 02-27-2003, 09:04 AM

No one can predict what the many effects and changes would be. However, setting those questions aside, truth is a good thing. Knowledge is a good thing. False beliefs and superstitions are bad things. If people did not cling to false superstititions, the world would be a better place merely for that reason.

However, this does not mean that it would be a good thing (even if we could) for atheists to try to forcibly eradicate theism. The effects would be worse than the disease. We should respect the rights of others to believe as they may. The only non-harmful way to move toward a non-theistic world is by peacably stating and advocating our beliefs.

Jamie_L · 02-27-2003, 09:33 AM

Human beings are very good at finding things to be irrational about. And about finding reasons to hurt and kill other human beings. If it weren't religion, it would be something else.

However, what I dislike about religion is that it is a well-organized and institutionalized system that indoctrinates people (often from very young ages) with the idea that critical thinking is a bad thing and that irrational belief without evidence is a good and even noble thing.

When dictators do this, we call it an abuse of human rights. When churches do it, we call it Sunday school. Which is grossly exaggerating, of course.

But, I do think if religion was gone, there would be more critical thinkers in the world. Fewer people believing in grand government conspiracies out to get them. Fewer people buying into political demagoguery. Fewer people falling for manipulative advertising. Religion and critical thinking are just naturally opposed to one another, and critical thinking is something the world needs more of.

Jamie

ocean · 02-27-2003, 12:41 PM

I agree that theism/religion has got to go. Religion is holding us back, it is keeping us from progressing. It is completely irrational to believe in non-existent magical beings instead of accepting the reality that such beings don't exist.

For thousands of years, religion has caused wars, terrorism, genocide, and other horrible atrocities. If there was no religion there would be much less violence and very few wars. Racism and terrorism would be non-existent. This world would be much better off without religion.

ocean · 02-27-2003, 12:49 PM

I don't think that religion will ever be completely eradicated, because children are indoctrinated from a very young age with religious superstition and dogma.

They are taught that reason and rational thinking is wrong, and that accepting ludicrous ideas just because they are in a "holy" text is right.

Ojuice5001 · 02-27-2003, 02:36 PM

It disgusts me that a thread by this anti-religious extremist has received a rating of five stars. Rest assured I am about to give it a lower rating.

My problem with it is simple. It is not definite that supernaturalistic religion is false. I would venture to say it's not even likely. Supernaturalism is a part of most people's experience, and there are few if any verified cases of so many people being so radically wrong.

In an atheistic society, forming a social contract with the gods would be impossible. The gods would therefore feel a greater freedom to act against our interests, since we wouldn't take theirs into consideration.

The gods also bestow purpose on the world. If naturalism is true, the world has no purposes but those created by humans and warm-blooded animals. That kind of universe is clearly more arbitrary and purposeless than a theistic one. And if people believe naturalism, their behavior will be better suited to a purposeless universe than if they were supernaturalists. Probably not a good thing.

02-27-2003, 09:04 AM	#56
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	yes No one can predict what the many effects and changes would be. However, setting those questions aside, truth is a good thing. Knowledge is a good thing. False beliefs and superstitions are bad things. If people did not cling to false superstititions, the world would be a better place merely for that reason. However, this does not mean that it would be a good thing (even if we could) for atheists to try to forcibly eradicate theism. The effects would be worse than the disease. We should respect the rights of others to believe as they may. The only non-harmful way to move toward a non-theistic world is by peacably stating and advocating our beliefs.

02-27-2003, 12:41 PM	#58
ocean Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 22	down with religion I agree that theism/religion has got to go. Religion is holding us back, it is keeping us from progressing. It is completely irrational to believe in non-existent magical beings instead of accepting the reality that such beings don't exist. For thousands of years, religion has caused wars, terrorism, genocide, and other horrible atrocities. If there was no religion there would be much less violence and very few wars. Racism and terrorism would be non-existent. This world would be much better off without religion.

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02-23-2003, 06:12 AM	#51
American Agnostic Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: CA, USA Posts: 56	The bottom line is that over the last several hundred years (except for a few bumbs in the road) religion has been getting increasing liberalized. Many theists in the US today believe in god but think that we're on own when it comes to solving problems. The groups that represent the biggest threat today are among that minority that still clings to religion as it existed 150 or more years ago. Fundamentalists are the ones who cause all the trouble. The liberal majority isn't a threat. What is needed is better science education so people aren't so relient on there being a god. This is EXACTLY what the fundies in the US are attacking these days because it's such a threat to them. over the next few centuries, as scientific explainations continue to advance religion will continue to liberalize until the few remaining fundalmentalists are pushed into a corner away from the rest of society. Actually, even fundies have liberalized over the last few centuries. We no longer burn "witches".

02-27-2003, 09:33 AM	#57
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Human beings are very good at finding things to be irrational about. And about finding reasons to hurt and kill other human beings. If it weren't religion, it would be something else. However, what I dislike about religion is that it is a well-organized and institutionalized system that indoctrinates people (often from very young ages) with the idea that critical thinking is a bad thing and that irrational belief without evidence is a good and even noble thing. When dictators do this, we call it an abuse of human rights. When churches do it, we call it Sunday school. Which is grossly exaggerating, of course. But, I do think if religion was gone, there would be more critical thinkers in the world. Fewer people believing in grand government conspiracies out to get them. Fewer people buying into political demagoguery. Fewer people falling for manipulative advertising. Religion and critical thinking are just naturally opposed to one another, and critical thinking is something the world needs more of. Jamie

02-27-2003, 12:49 PM	#59
ocean Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 22	I don't think that religion will ever be completely eradicated, because children are indoctrinated from a very young age with religious superstition and dogma. They are taught that reason and rational thinking is wrong, and that accepting ludicrous ideas just because they are in a "holy" text is right.

02-27-2003, 02:36 PM	#60
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	It disgusts me that a thread by this anti-religious extremist has received a rating of five stars. Rest assured I am about to give it a lower rating. My problem with it is simple. It is not definite that supernaturalistic religion is false. I would venture to say it's not even likely. Supernaturalism is a part of most people's experience, and there are few if any verified cases of so many people being so radically wrong. In an atheistic society, forming a social contract with the gods would be impossible. The gods would therefore feel a greater freedom to act against our interests, since we wouldn't take theirs into consideration. The gods also bestow purpose on the world. If naturalism is true, the world has no purposes but those created by humans and warm-blooded animals. That kind of universe is clearly more arbitrary and purposeless than a theistic one. And if people believe naturalism, their behavior will be better suited to a purposeless universe than if they were supernaturalists. Probably not a good thing.

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