malookiemaloo

First of all, the Gospel writers were, nor never pretended to be, historians or newspapermen. They had nothing to 'prove' no axe to grind etc. Indeed it is interesting that the Bible NEVER tries to prove or justify itself. Also it neverv tries to prove God's existence-that is assumed. Sceptics may not like that but it's a fact.

So to the saints coming out of their graves.

Unfortunately we live in days when there is a terrible prejudice against the supernatural. ( If Osama bin Laden explodes a few dirty bombs in the USA you'll see a change in that.)

However people in Biblical days were more spiritually aware eg why does Balaam accept his talking donkey with so little surprise.

As JJ Lowder has said many times, if God exists we should expect miraculous acts like dead saints to come out of their graves!! It should cause no surprise at all.

It all depends whether you believe in the existence of a deity and that's a faith stance either way.


m

Toto

The gospel writers were trying to prove something. They were trying to prove that Jesus was predicted in the Jewish scriptures.

It's not clear why skeptics would object to the Bible's deficiencies

Why, pray tell? If some religious lunatic uses modern science to attack us, why we will all revert to the superstition of the middle ages or before?

I never knew that spiritually aware was the same as gullible.

And by the fact that we don't see dead saints coming out of their graves, you conclude what?

malookiemaloo

Please forgive an 'all in one 'answer, I have not yet mastered how to cut and paste!!

Yes, the disciples were 'reporting' in one sense but they were not trying to 'make Jesus fit' the OT picture of the Messiah. Why should they?

If OBL attacks USA or people become threatened and see death a little closer they become more spiritually aware. I think that's a fact which cannot be disputed. You can call it superstition if you like. But remember the old adage 'there are no atheists on a sinking ship'!

Yes, there are no dead saints coming out of their graves now. What point are you making here if I may ask? Please remember, that although 'miracles' are well documented in the Bible, when taken over the entire Biblical period, they were actually quite rare-some at the creation, exodus, Jesus and shortly after. A few other sporadic happenings and that's about it.


m

Toto

Originally posted by malookiemaloo in bold
Please forgive an 'all in one 'answer, I have not yet mastered how to cut and paste!!

Yes, the disciples were 'reporting' in one sense but they were not trying to 'make Jesus fit' the OT picture of the Messiah. Why should they?

That was what they did. Practically every event in the New Testament is there to show that it fulfilled some scriptural prediction, even if that prediction had to be teased out.

The process is described in Luke 24, which only the most fundamentalist think could be based on reported fact, but which probably described what early Christians actually did:

44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

If OBL attacks USA or people become threatened and see death a little closer they become more spiritually aware. I think that's a fact which cannot be disputed. You can call it superstition if you like. But remember the old adage 'there are no atheists on a sinking ship'!

I dispute that "fact". People may become more emotional, but how can you call that being "spiritually aware?"

In the middle ages, people were confronted with the plague, which they did not understand. They become very religious, prayed, fasted, publicly flagellated themselves, and put the blame on cats and Jews. Nothing they did helped. Now, when we are confronted with plagues and terrorists, we turn to science and technology, with better and more humane results.

Besides, the adage is that there are no atheists in foxholes, and it is demonstrably false; there have been and are lots of atheists in foxholes and in dangerous situations in general.

Yes, there are no dead saints coming out of their graves now. What point are you making here if I may ask? Please remember, that although 'miracles' are well documented in the Bible, when taken over the entire Biblical period, they were actually quite rare-some at the creation, exodus, Jesus and shortly after. A few other sporadic happenings and that's about it.


No dead saints coming out of graves implies that there is no supernatural God.

The entire OT is about how YHWH supernaturally helps out the Israelites in their military adventures if they follow his laws, and punishes them if they sin. This may not be what you think of as a miracle, but it is supernatural intervention in history.

Besides, the Bible is not "documentation." It is story telling until you show otherwise. (Do you think that Homer is documentation for the existence of the Greek gods??)

Radcliffe Emerson

Jesus is NOT in anyway predicted in the Old Testament. Ask any orthodox Rabbi. Jesus was an idea based on Greek concepts, and all of his "miraculous" happenings are borrowed from earlier myths of other cultures.

Spiritually aware to me is the same as mentally ignorant.

I have a suggestion to the fervent believers. Jesus said "Ask for anything in my name and you shall be granted it."

Jump off a 50 story building and ask Jesus to save you.