Theophage

Correct, they are not false sensory input, they are false perceptions based on that input. But aren't dreams and such also false perceptions? I assumed the poster was taking false perceptions into account too.

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Theophage ]</p>

Adrian Selby

How could someone prove they don't exist?

Slightly fatuous point, but if one or the other is true, and one must weigh up the evidence for either, how does one go about arguing that we don't exist. While proof might be impossible, i.e. skepticism can always throw marbles under one's feet, the merits of either view must be weighed up, and its hard to think one could find more merits for the latter being true, namely, we do not exist.

But I'm more or less repeating better expressed points.

Adrian

jordan_tar

Taking into account the true nature of a dream - as an imaginary fantasy conceived in sleep, or however you define it - and comparing it to the actual reality of which we're conscious (which is, as others have said, sustained and objective), we've got a basis for comparison from which we can say that the sustained, objective reality is the true one.

Adrian Selby

One interesting point a lecturer put to my class once was for every statement that one created regarding one's experiences, put at the front of the statement, 'I was dreaming/I dreamt that...' and see if it changes the possible truth value of the statement, i.e. whether it would make the statement absurd.
I concur with the thrust of those points regarding memory. I have very coherent dreams, many I could recount here, full of characters I talk to, plots, driving cars etc. even one where I dreamed I was in an office that I did work in at the time. And all I did was do my duties, no weird colours, just typing stuff into a computer, answering phone calls to clients, talking to my colleagues eating sandwiches. I felt rotten when the alarm went off because it was so like being in work.

Perhaps during a dream we simply can't know that it is a dream, and perhaps resultantly we might wonder by what means we could tell we're conscious while conscious, but while we seem to differentiate the two, the key means for believing we're right when we think we're conscious is the continued and constant ability to relay huge amounts of memories and details relating to the lives we think we have, whereas there is no consistency to our memories with regard to dreams. This seems to automatically set us into associating being conscious with the faculties that provide the immense memory and recall capabilities that allow us to exist in whatever state we call 'real'.

But is it that set of faculties that are wholly responsible for our ascribing reality to the experiences and things we retain the most memory of?

Adrian

Theophage

Correct, but this has nothing to do with the pedantic point that I brought up in the first place: that such false things are not necessarily forgotten. Please try not to go off on too many tangents.

jordan_tar

OK - I see your point; I just thought initially that you were saying there was no basis for comparison. Looking back, I see you agreed...

Infinity Lover

If you're going to try and dispute the following statement, don't try too long, or you might hurt yourself.

INFINITY EXISTS, THUS EXISTENCE IS INFINITE

When you're done attempting to apply boundaries in your mind, try to realize there's a limited amount of things you're sure about, but an infinite amount of things you can't be sure about; and because we don't like doubt, I think, we also have a hard time coming to terms with the concept of infinity.

One thing you can be sure of, is that existence exists, you're part of it, therefore you undoubtedly exist (Descartes eat your heart out)

I'm not trying to discourage you to philosophy, but before you elaborate on a train of thought, it might be good to think about where that train is headed. Towards an answer or away from it.

Don't expect to find answers, but aspire to ask and answer questions...

...and don't try to understand EVERYTHING. Just understand EVERYTHING is there.

Marcel Rombouts

Theophage

I doubt that. Infinity exists as a concept, and certainly there are infinite sets of numbers and such (all concepts), but I certainly don't think that anything infinite exists in reality. Care to clue me in on some?