Apikorus

I'll stipulate that Dr. Altman has more experience in ancient Jewish inscriptions than do I. It doesn't mean she's right, though. And after seeing the photos in BAR and on the Time website, I'm pretty sure she's wrong. I don't know what prompted her to make such bold statements - the only reason I can think of is maybe she was misled by some poor photos and/or sketches of the inscription.

Many scholars will now have the opportunity to view the ossuary, and perhaps more theories will appear as to its origin and significance. The initial press release came barely a week ago. These things take time. At the moment, there are no indications from any expert who has directly inspected the ossuary that it is anything but genuine. Maybe that will change, though I doubt it.

You should realize that Rachel Altman has virtually no standing as a biblical scholar, epigrapher/palaeographer, Aramaist, etc. Her publication record is miniscule. Andre Lemaire, on the other hand, is a leading authority on ancient inscriptions. Plus he's directly inspected the ossuary. That doesn't guarantee that he's right and she's wrong, but I'd certainly put much much more weight on what he says.

The Time article said that Emile Puech, another leading Semitic epigrapher/palaeographer, disagreed somewhat with Lemaire's dating. I'm curious as to what Puech thinks.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

Drexel

I'm not sure if this has been already mentioned:

In Acts 12-2 Herod Agrippa has James executed.
Since Agrippa died in 44 c.e. this would put the date of the execution some time before or in 44 c.e.

Therefore, the ossuary dated 60-70 c.e. has nothing to do with the biblical James.
You either accept that or you accept biblical fallacy.

Toto

Are you saying James the brother of John is James the brother of Jesus?

Acts 12

1 It was about this time that King Herod arrested some who belonged to the church, intending to persecute them. 2 He had James, the brother of John, put to death with the sword. 3 When he saw that this pleased the Jews, he proceeded to seize Peter also.

Apikorus

Wrong James, Drexel. You're referring to "James the son of Zebedee" (and brother of John). The James allegedly on the ossuary would have been "James brother of Jesus". There's also "James son of Alphaeus" (who is often identified with "James the younger"), and probably some other Jameses/Jacobs I don't recall. (The NT is not my cup of tea.)

The death of "James brother of Jesus" is not described in the NT, but both Josephus and Hegesippus (through Eusebius) say that he was offed by the priestly authorities in Jerusalem, ca. 62 CE. That's why you've been hearing a date of 63 CE for the ossuary. Ossuary reburial took place after about a year, when the original corpse had rotted away. A date this precise is obviously arrived at by "answer analysis". Lemaire himself fixes the date, based on epigraphy, to "the last decades before the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE."

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

Drexel

Well, I'm just getting into this whole biblical criticism thing and maybe I'm confused by the sheer number of Jameses in the New Testament.

I mean, how many were there?

Drexel

Ok, thanks Apikorus, that makes it clearer.

Ted Hoffman

Its not as simple as you might be thinking - the passage in Josephus (Antiquities 20) is controversial and is considered by some to be partially interpolated. Its incongruous and the use of the term brother is open to interpretation.
Eusebius also provides info on James that contradicts Josephus. When Apikorus mentions Hegessipus, read Eusebius.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

Geoff Hudson

Which is precisely what the editor wanted. He knew he had to get James out of the picture somehow, by hook or by crook. The real information in Acts 12 verse 2 is that James was "put to death with the sword", probably beheaded - hardly a Jewish form of execution, but appropriate for a Roman citizen. His execution was in Rome later after sentence by Nero's court. This is what the editor is covering up. He simply inserted Acts 12, verse 2. He then transmogrified James into Peter (verse 3). Agrippa didn't execute James, but only arrested him, not Peter. John, the brother of James was stoned to death by Ananus in Jerusalem, after James had been executed in Rome.

Geoff

leonarde

Posted by Geoff Hudson: And how is it that you think him a Roman citizen?

Cheers!

Vorkosigan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Apikorus:
[QB]I'll stipulate that Dr. Altman has more experience in ancient Jewish inscriptions than do I. It doesn't mean she's right, though. And after seeing the photos in BAR and on the Time website, I'm pretty sure she's wrong. [/b]

More and more this is becoming my opinion. She's just so confident it scares me. It's "blatant" "obvious" her very words. Scholars just don't use words like that in the face of other scholars, especially considering that she has never handled the object in question. This seems to be Altman's SOP, however. Consider her tone here:

A post from Orion DSS group:

• Fred, you still are misunderstanding me.
  
  I do not need to be informed that Qumran is hardly unique. Except for content, the same things we see at Qumran happen with quite
  predictable regularity throughout recorded history. It happened in Ireland, England, China, France, Germany, Spain, India, across
  North Africa, and again and again. It is happening in Mongolia right now.
  
  Your "scribal activity" is not evidence of scribes acting as authors or editors. All that variation among the Qumran documents is merely evidence of a major cultural disruption.
  
  Please refrain from making unwaranted accusations. I work from the MSS, scrolls, inscriptions, and tablets. I don't
  even use transcriptions. My data is backed by years of empirical experience in addition to years of study and formally learned theoretical constructs.
  
  BTW, it has become standard operating procedures among many paleographers that one must be able to produce a replica of at least two columns of a scroll, or a leaf of a manuscript, or an inscription before working on a given script. I certainly do...
  
  Regards,
  Rochelle

"I don't even use transcriptions..."

Yet for the James ossuary she is using a transcription!

&gt;sigh&lt;

Vorkosigan