Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ex-preacher · 02-08-2002, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:

Ok I hope RW will let me know if he is able to ever barrow money from any of these great extended relatives. My family has been financially by chruches many times, when atheists start giving money to other athesits who need it maybe we'll start to see if they really have anything like a family.

Let's ignore that the two largest charitable givers in history (Ted Turner and Bill Gates) are atheists.

Plus, we UUs have great potlucks. In fact, we're having one next week to discuss changes in America's drug war.

Welcome aboard, RW! I have been exactly where you are. I know about the discouragement and dealing with guilt trips, threats, emotional appeals, etc. from Christian "friends." Let me know if there's any way I can be of assistance. Believe me, life in the world of reality gets better and better.

Queen of Swords · 02-08-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:

here's a list of things he'll be needing that he's left behind with us:

6) people who don't even know you but are willing to devote at least 4 minutes to concentrated wishes for his best interest should the need arize.

Emphasis added by myself.

He can have this from me right away :

Star light, star bright,
first star I see tonight,
I wish I may, I wish I might
have the wish I wish tonight.

I wish for rainbow walking's best interests should the need arise.

<repeat for four minutes>

If the result is any different from regular prayer, rainbow walking, let me know.

hezekiah jones · 02-08-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock:
1) unconditional love
2) people who would be willing to die for him if worse case senerios of persecutation came true
3) eternal life
4) unconditional forgiveness for all past deeds going back to earliest days (and forgiveness in such a way that all wrong doings are truely forgiven not just imagined to be forgiven).
5) At least the possibility of divine healing
6) people who don't even know you but are willing to devote at least 4 minutes to concentrated wishes for his best interest should the need arize.
7) people who are willing to come get you anywhere anytime for any need 24-7.
8) People who actually like you for youself regardless of corny jokes.
9) regular source of pot luck dinners.

Well, at least pot luck dinners are neither a mean spirited guilt trip nor a crock of metaphysical nonsense. Good on you, Rainbow Walking.

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by theophilus:

I have no need to slander anyone. I contend for the truth, not against people. As far as I've observed, it is the atheists who feel the need to make personal attacks.

And in the very next post:

...actually, he's no person at all now...

Implying that someone is "no person at all" because of their beliefs is, IMO, pretty damned close to slander. Isn't that how the radical moslems justify killings such as the 9/11 tragedy?

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Spirit Branded · 02-08-2002, 02:17 PM

Hi Helen

You can't have it both ways ... you can't have the value system without its creator.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Eudaimonist · 02-08-2002, 02:17 PM

Meta wrote: 9) regular source of pot luck dinners.

daemon23 wrote: Okay, you got me there. Unless, of course, the freethinker societies do something of the like.

The Fellowship of Reason has regular pot luck dinners.

HelenM · 02-08-2002, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
Hi Helen

You can't have it both ways ... you can't have the value system without its creator.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Hi SB

What is it with Australian Christians - do you all say "Blessings and Peace" or are you Hilarius back under a new name?

Anyway, I know people who claim to have the Creator and they don't seem to have the value system...so, doesn't that demonstrate that they are separable?

Or would you say those people aren't real Christians?

And moreover, if I see someone being nice who is an atheist - well, what does that mean? I need my eyes checked because I must have been seeing things, since it's impossible?

I think you are talking theology to me but I live in the real world.

love
Helen

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 02:29 PM

RW:

I an identify with what you must be going through. About two years ago I finally despaired of asking god to reveal himself to me and hearing, in reply, silence. I am still struggling with my family relationships, since almost all in my family are believers. As someone earlier (Helen, I believe) implied, you are not responsible for them or their reactions.

To all:

I, as an atheist, have no desire to convert anyone from their faith. However, it does encourage me when I hear words from someone who has escaped from the xian (or other) faith into the liberating life without human-imposed guilt, as illustrated by metacrock's statement:

4) unconditional forgiveness for all past deeds going back to earliest days (and forgiveness in such a way that all wrong doings are truely forgiven not just imagined to be forgiven).

The realization that I no longer have to worry about "forgiveness," that I am not corrupt by birthright, that I am my own moral agent and solely responsible for my well-being, was so refreshing and enlightening to be beyond words.

The damage to countless lives caused by belief systems that are based on the corruption and evil of human existence is morally reprehensible.

Escaping the "threat" of eternal life is another benefit I've enjoyed. It makes this life so much more precious, meaningful and enjoyable to not have to worry about the eternal implications of anything I do.

So, RW, I am happy for you if you can find what I've found in a life free from guilt and condemnation. Xians think they are the ones offering such freedom, when in fact their belief system is the creator of this evil.

Gurdur · 02-08-2002, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
......

As the son of an atheist father and Christian mother I know what it is like to be torn between two possibilites .. and let no one deny that both possibilities are entirely real to those faced with a choice and willing to consider both, though only one can be true.

Yes, more or less.

Quote:

If we walk past all the failures of Christians and return to Christ I believe there is nothing to compare with the value system that Christ taught. Though other fine religions have much to offer, none are to me as pure.

The main problem with this is interpreting just what "the value system that Christ taught" actually was.

Quote:

.... most of us who are Christians fit uncomfortably somewhere in between, trying fitfully and irregularly to have our lives match the purity of the beliefs, and failing more often than we succeed.

well, in Australia and elsewhere; I've known great people who were Moslems in Africa, Hindus in India and vague, vague Shintoists or Buddhists in Japan. Oh, and great people who were atheists.

Quote:

These to me are certainties based on scripture which scrupture I hold, with the Church, to be absolutely authoritative concerning the life and teachings of Christ.

Which interpretation?
Even the CofE, Australia, seems rather divided these days - or so in the bishoprics of Sydney and that covering Kiama , I believe.

Quote:

To all who are truly searching for truth, regardless of any label they currently apply to themselves, I wish only the assurance that comes from holiness and purity.

um, thanks, but I usually wish simply luck, empathy with other people and commitmant to honesty and overall general lack of bastardliness.

Spirit Branded,
it's my own stance that with the right value system, then it really doesn't matter what one believes , muchly; I've known incredibly 'good' atheists, nominal Christians, Buddhists etc.
The wrong value system can be incredibly productive of evil - i.e. Calvin's burning of Servetus, the Inquisition, fatwas, Stalinism etc.

i.e. I'm suggesting pay heed to the practical values /ethics system, and let the putative afterlife look after itself.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]

Spirit Branded · 02-08-2002, 02:31 PM

Hi Helen

Your sarcasm towards Metacrock and your bending over backwards to justify RW's latest writing to your readers leads me to wonder whether your hatred of Christ and Christians exceeds your love of them. Do you really claim to love and know those besieged by doubts as RW seemingly is ... though I imagine his intellect is currently confusing him and his underlying love of peace will bring him home

If you have known doubt that is one thing but to castigate Christians for their concern is another and I question your commitment to prayer in this matter and hence your sincerity.

I imagine too that RW embraced Calvin and Divine Sovereignty before he understood fully the demands made by God on human responsibility.

This does not make him a convert to atheism so much as a convert from fundamentalism.

For that I thank and bless the Creator of all mankind and his son our Saviour Jesus Christ, but I do so knowing that we are forgiven for all our intellectual misunderstandings, as long as we walk along the path of peace and divine love while still viewing the rainbow - the teachings of Christ.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

02-08-2002, 02:12 PM	#114
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Originally posted by theophilus: I have no need to slander anyone. I contend for the truth, not against people. As far as I've observed, it is the atheists who feel the need to make personal attacks. And in the very next post: ...actually, he's no person at all now... Implying that someone is "no person at all" because of their beliefs is, IMO, pretty damned close to slander. Isn't that how the radical moslems justify killings such as the 9/11 tragedy? [ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

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02-08-2002, 02:17 PM	#115
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hi Helen You can't have it both ways ... you can't have the value system without its creator. Blessings and Peace Spirit Branded

02-08-2002, 02:17 PM	#116
Eudaimonist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Sundsvall, Sweden Posts: 3,159	Meta wrote: 9) regular source of pot luck dinners. daemon23 wrote: Okay, you got me there. Unless, of course, the freethinker societies do something of the like. The Fellowship of Reason has regular pot luck dinners.

02-08-2002, 02:29 PM	#118
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	RW: I an identify with what you must be going through. About two years ago I finally despaired of asking god to reveal himself to me and hearing, in reply, silence. I am still struggling with my family relationships, since almost all in my family are believers. As someone earlier (Helen, I believe) implied, you are not responsible for them or their reactions. To all: I, as an atheist, have no desire to convert anyone from their faith. However, it does encourage me when I hear words from someone who has escaped from the xian (or other) faith into the liberating life without human-imposed guilt, as illustrated by metacrock's statement: 4) unconditional forgiveness for all past deeds going back to earliest days (and forgiveness in such a way that all wrong doings are truely forgiven not just imagined to be forgiven). The realization that I no longer have to worry about "forgiveness," that I am not corrupt by birthright, that I am my own moral agent and solely responsible for my well-being, was so refreshing and enlightening to be beyond words. The damage to countless lives caused by belief systems that are based on the corruption and evil of human existence is morally reprehensible. Escaping the "threat" of eternal life is another benefit I've enjoyed. It makes this life so much more precious, meaningful and enjoyable to not have to worry about the eternal implications of anything I do. So, RW, I am happy for you if you can find what I've found in a life free from guilt and condemnation. Xians think they are the ones offering such freedom, when in fact their belief system is the creator of this evil.

02-08-2002, 02:31 PM	#120
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hi Helen Your sarcasm towards Metacrock and your bending over backwards to justify RW's latest writing to your readers leads me to wonder whether your hatred of Christ and Christians exceeds your love of them. Do you really claim to love and know those besieged by doubts as RW seemingly is ... though I imagine his intellect is currently confusing him and his underlying love of peace will bring him home If you have known doubt that is one thing but to castigate Christians for their concern is another and I question your commitment to prayer in this matter and hence your sincerity. I imagine too that RW embraced Calvin and Divine Sovereignty before he understood fully the demands made by God on human responsibility. This does not make him a convert to atheism so much as a convert from fundamentalism. For that I thank and bless the Creator of all mankind and his son our Saviour Jesus Christ, but I do so knowing that we are forgiven for all our intellectual misunderstandings, as long as we walk along the path of peace and divine love while still viewing the rainbow - the teachings of Christ. Blessings and Peace Spirit Branded

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