rainbow walking

Hello rainbow walking,

Hi David,

David: Humans are bringing about their own extinction,

Rw: Theism and mysticism are the only ideas I know of that genuinely long for human extinction David. That’s the most anticipated dream implied in all your religions and is contained most vividly in the book of Revelation. You guys have orgasms over the thought of your imaginary deity jumping out of your asses into our world and smiting the heathen. You start war after war trying to force other cults and sects to swallow your version of the fantasy. Every war and skirmish going on today has some religious overtones and motives sustaining and encouraging the bloodshed. Every DAMN one David! Humans, infected with the god virus, are threatening our world, not science but religion, faith and belief in all the many gods that humans can invent and invest with so many incomprehensible attributes that it is inconceivable to me how it got this far.

David: threatening the future of our own species either directly (nuclear bombs, biological and chemical weapons)

Rw: Who’s doing this David? The most recent nations threatening to use nuclear weapons are India and Pakistan. Care to consider what it is about Cashmere that they are willing to exterminate one another about? Do you know any of the stupid religious issues they’re whacking each other into pieces over? Here’s an article I posted a few weeks back you should read: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000417" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000417</a>

David: or indirectly (destruction of natural environment, destruction of biodiversity, poisoning the atmosphere and water with dangerous chemicals, etc).

Rw: Life is full of challenges David and mankind will face those challenges with science, not religion. So you just go get back in your prayer closet and hide out until the smoke clears and the dust settles.

rw: Only by ignoring the fact that if humans were truly evil we’d never have progressed beyond the dark ages that were, BTW, the direct result of xianity’s cult control over men’s minds. If there is any evil in this world today it’s directly related to mysticism and Christianity and Judaism and Muslimism, period! Care to take a geographical tour of all the battles and skirmishes going on around the world and see who is fighting who?

David: I guess that in your view the atheists don't engage in these sorts of wars and skirmishes. I believe that you are mistaken.

Rw: You always believe I’m mistaken but you never get around to proving it. What really puzzles me is this David. All those people hacking each other into pieces and threatening each other with nuclear holocaust and flying planes into buildings and murdering children and their fathers in the streets of Jerusalem are believers. What the hell do you expect rational people to think David? Us atheists thought you believers had it going on. We thought, well, if their gods and deities are real and they are as dedicated as they claim and their doctrines really are based on love then the world aught to be improving by leaps and bounds, right? I mean with 4 billion or so in just the xian camp alone you’d think we’d see some positive results soon…yes?

But it’s becoming appallingly clear that all we can expect is an escalation of this violence and bloodshed from believers, no less.

So I’m thinking that maybe we aught to start taking a closer look at what it is you believers are extolling as virtuous about your beliefs. Because whatever it is David, it ain’t working. And there’s that abominable doctrine of human depravity and the ones displaying it with gusto and robustness are the ones claiming it the loudest. Curious that.

David: Are you certain that you are not evil? Would you say that you are righteous?

Rw: I am righteous and have earned it, unlike you believers who have bestowed it upon yourselves for no other reason than just professing to join the intellectual bloodbath of Jesus’ crucifixion.


David: God hates? God's emotions are not comparable in any way with human emotions. I have reason to believe that God doesn't have any emotions at all.

Rw: You seem to have reasons to believe anything and everything that protects your disease from exposure. That’s part of the disease. Re-interpret your manual and use that salad bar xerism to avoid the light.

David: exploit the poor,

Rw: You mean like the church?

David: I mean the manner in which multinational corporations develop and profit from the natural resources of third world nations without fairly compensating the people of those nations.

Rw: And you have some examples? And your standard of fair is based on…?

Rw: And that is not evil, it’s human nature and please don’t try to tell me human nature is evil.

David: I hate to say it but it is true. Human nature is evil.

Rw: No David, you don’t hate to say it. Infected as you are you must say it, it’s all you’ve got to justify the death clutch religion and mysticism has on your mind. You have to be evil to join the cult. You have to confess it, wallow in it, slobber it all over your neighborhood and church. Hi, my name is David and I'm a sinner. And you never wonder why your professional mouthpieces molest your children, seduce your women, pick your pockets and demand your loyalty to the death. You can say it till the moon turns to cheese but that don’t make it true. Here’s my response to this nonsense: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000395" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000395</a>

Rw: Bullshit. I tell you what David, if you REALLY believe this go and sell your car, your computer, all your scientifically developed toys, turn off your electricity and running water, dis-connect your sewer system, divorce yourself from all modern scientifically devised conveniences, avoid roads, bridges, McDonalds, and any means of transportation other than your own two feet, strip yourself of all your clothing manufactured using modern scientific methods, toss out your deodorant, toothpaste, soap and toilet paper, empty your frig and sell it along with the house, and live your life like you REALLY mean this crap! Be BOLD David! Be an example! Show us heathen how a Christian really practices all the trash he preaches. Don’t hold back David. Go for it!

David: That is good advice, indeed. However, I do not consider any of the above to be evil.

Rw: You declared science to be evil and the harbinger of the worlds demise, did you not? All of the above are products of science you rely on daily for your sustenance so if science is as evil as you claim you should have no problem rejecting its products.

Rw: To protect people from religious and sick minded zealots and power hungry idiots who would drive us to extinction in more hideous ways than you could imagine. Nuclear energy also generates the electricity you run your computer with. Biology has isolated and found cures and treatments for diseases that have ravaged humanity for thousands of years. Chemistry has created fertilizers and untold numerous life enhancing products. You dishonor mankind and his greatest efforts in this line of crappy dappy reasoning. People who espouse such ignorance do not deserve to enjoy the benefits.

David: All of these gifts of science do not compare to the horror of even a limited nuclear war scenario. The world after such a war would resemble hell.

Rw: Then you better get cracking on a way to persuade all your religiously infected comrades not to thrust us into one over some idiotic religious claim or another. Atheists aren’t fighting and murdering people all over the globe, believers are. Of course, atheists don’t believe they’re helplessly depraved and evil either…hmmm, imagine that.

Rw: Preach it brother Dave, better yet, prove it brother Dave, get out of your pulpit dude it ain’t working. Let’s trace the lives of the perpetrators of any given crime and I’ll bet you a days wages the majority of them were infected with the god germ somewhere in their past and were sold the whole bullshit line about being evil. Ever wonder why the MAJORITY of every inmate in America’s prisons subscribes to some type of religious persuasion?

David; That is an easy question. The reason: Because the majority of people in America are religious.

Rw: Why thank you brother Dave for that correct answer. Now please explain to me what all these religious folk is doin in prison and not out working fo da lawd? Would these be dem folk what learned they was evil for they was knee hi to a grass hopper, you know, de ones what mamma’s took em to church every day and twice on Sunday?

David: Humans have created this monster called science and it is threatening to drive us to extinction.

Rw: What an intellectual coward you’ve demonstrated yourself to be. I’m very disappointed David. I thought you loved science?

David: I love the ideal of science, which is curiousity about the Universe and how it operates. The reality of science is that the same technologies which make our own life more convenient were first developed to kill people.

Rw: Do tell? You love the ideas don’t you. But hate the products? Strange that. Above you said the products weren’t evil. You seem to be all over the scale with this one Dave. Methinks your credibility meter just took a nose dive into hades.

Ryanfire

I'll reword the question again:

How did god create our emotional states if he does not have the emotions within him?

How is god's love higher than our ours?
How is god's anger better than ours?

And for f*ck sakes, god said he created us in his own image. Yet somehow managed to give us emotions that have nothing to do with his.

Interesting how you still claim to know all these things about god yet you can't comprehend him.

Keep up the good work David. You are making a lot of friends through all your lies and deceptions. "I don't know god.. but I hear he has love greater than man..", "Gee really Dave?".. "No... I just claim what I want god to be", "Oh... well god is gay", "Perhaps he is.. but I can't comprehend god so who knows?"

I might as well be a dog chasing my own tail.

Philosoft

David,

All your examples of human "evil" no doubt occur regularly. However, I offer a functional worldwide society as evidence that people do "good" at least as often as they do "evil." It is poor reasoning on your part that you point only to individual acts that promote pain and suffering as evidence of man's nature. The totality of the evidence does not favor either one-sided argument. Clearly man's "nature" is a complex amalgam of motivations, rather than fundamentally "good" or fundamentally "evil."

Bluenose

"HelenSL:
I thought cross posting is when I post to you at the same time you post to me "
Thank you, I remember now how I got that mixed up back when I started learning all this newspeak.

"Helen: Two people posting essentially the same response to someone else at the same time - maybe that is 'great minds think alike' "

B to David: please do take that last comment seriously.

sandlewood

Again, who said that science has to solve all of mankind’s problems for it not to be a failure? Round and round we go, saying the same things. Whether past scientists envisioned that science could create a utopia is irrelevant. Just because we thought up Star Trek, suddenly science is a failure? Science and technology have solved many problems. Religion has not solved any.
The scientific method requires objective evidence for support. There is no objective evidence that there is a god. Lack of evidence that something exists leads one to the conclusion that something doesn’t exist.

I can claim that there is an invisible, undetectable wall between here and the moon and that all future moon missions must carry extra fuel and plot a course around it. Do you think they will listen to me? Do you think that scientific methods will be the methods they use to come to the conclusion that the wall really isn’t there?

If you don’t think that scientific methods are a good enough to gain reliable knowledge, you need to explain why not. Simply claiming that it is faulty because it cannot detect an alleged being that is defined as not being detectable by science is insufficient. Why should I listen to that argument, since I can make the same argument for the IPU or any other undetectable thing I care to dream up.

Well if you can’t define “the mystery” then I can’t know what it is that science allegedly can’t ever find the answer to. Any assertions that science can’t answer “the mystery” are premature.

I only asked for a definition. It’s not like I asked for an itemized list of every possible question about everything.
I took it that all of your quotes were intended to support the notion that humans are quite aware of their own ignorance.

Anyway, maybe a way out of this mess is this. If you define part of “the mystery” as being unable to find ones identity, then sure, science probably is not going to help you there. Deciding what identity means and what finding it means it typically the subject of philosophy. (I use the word “deciding” purposely). None of this supports to claim that a god exists, as you agreed to earlier.
Who said atheism is truth? I don’t know where you got that from. The previous paragraph still stands.

I have to say that all this going round in circles has gotten rather uninteresting.

Maybe it should have ended way back at this point:
In other words, since God is as yet to be shown to exist, the awe that we feel is what you imagine it would be like to contemplate God if he did exist. I wouldn’t disagree with that.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: sandlewood ]</p>

Theli

David...

"Known"... *sigh*
I wouldn't care if they have "known" it for 10.000 years. It was still unfounded. It doesn't become truth just because it's old.
When did age become a factor?

Still unfounded. It doesn't matter how you, or anyone else rephraze an unfounded claim, it still remain unfounded.
And... regarding the mystery. How can god be a big mystery when people aparently "know" things about him?

Non sequitur. Even if we would assume that god created the universe, it doesn't follow that he must be omniscient. It isn't even probable.
Present their arguments.

Well... for one it requires determinism. It is also not verifiable by us. Not by any means.
It also include the qualifyer "everthing", as in "allknowing" - "knows everything". And we don't know what "everything" is. So we have no reason to assume it.'
There is also the problem with god's identification of his own supposed omniscience. God only knows the answers to questions that has been questioned. It doesn't follow that he knows the answers to all questions unasked. Within his own reality he might think himself omniscient, oblivious of what might exist outside his knowledge.
And we also have things like... does god know all false answers to every questions?
Does he know the answer to questions that is subjective based? Does he know his own future actions/thoughts?
I would say that omniscience is highly improbable.
Check out this thread... <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000420&p=" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000420&p=</A>

Yes, I'm sure. But you didn't answer my question. You answered weither god could have a son, not if he actually did.
And also, the ability of god is knowledge, and shouldn't be considered a mystery. So, god cannot really be outside our knowledge and understanding.

Thank you and good night!!!
I thought you said that going to the doctor when we felt pain would make us unproductive.
You just contradicted your own statement. I don't think you are being honest.

Do I really need someone commanding me?
What kind of maggot am I that I would need some guy from an old storybook commanding me to love people? I don't think I'm that bad. And if I were, I would probably not listen to his command anyway.

Don't get me started on Jesus crucifixion.

Yes, that is good.
But still the question stays.
1. What does their religion have to do with this. This is people that want to help poor and sick people. I would think they would still be doing it, even if they weren't christians.
2. I don't think there has been bilions of missionaries, as you claimed. What did all the other christians do with their wealth and time?
3. The "evil science" shows it's face again. I thought medical science was just a distraction. How do you suppose that the missionaries would be able to cary out their work without science? They wouldn't even get to the distant lands to begin with. No science - no cars, no boats and no planes.
4. Does these missionaries practice faith healing and casting spells on the sick?

Yes, it is a sacrifice. Still... read above.

Maybe, but very inconsistent.

You don't actually think they use planes to transport people, and merchendize (damn word!)?

I've been thinking about this myself. And I think the news (weither it is on television, in the paper or on radio) gives a very skewed perspective on human race.
I would say that the best way to decide if people are generally "evil" or not, is to look at people you actually know.
Let's pose this example... A man is a loving father and husband for about 30 years. But at a time of financial crisis we makes a mistake and decides to rob a store. Now, what is most likely to end up in the newspaper? Him robbing the store, or him living in peace with his family for 30 years?
If we were to summerize everything we read in newspaper or watch on TV and call that "the human nature" then ofcourse we will think humans are evil.
If you would take more time trying to understand people, and less time judging them for their deeds you might find that they aren't too different from you. That they aren't evil by nature.

Quick question... is you reighbour hatefull most of the time? Does he throw rocks at your house when you are not around?
Does he try to trick kids into using drugs?

What is "sinfull" anyway? What is a sin?

One final question on this post... David, are you evil?

Answerer

Humans are not demons, they are merely selfish, not evil. At least, no one had seen anyone going about declaring that the true purpose of human's life is the total destruction of all lives.

davidm

David, you said:
Why did science invent the jet airplane? The jet airplane was invented to shoot down propeller driven planes. Intercontinental jets were developed to drop conventional and nuclear bombs. Supersonic jets and Stealth bombers were invented to drop nuclear bombs on the Soviet Union. Missiles were initially invented to drop conventional bombs on London. Intercontinental missiles were invented to drop nuclear bombs. I suppose that all technologies were initially developed for the purpose of killing other humans. There may be some exceptions but in general all of these technologies were first utilized in the context of warfare before their civilian uses were developed.

My reply:
This is only partly true, and you know it. Have you never heard of a passenger airplane? Was the printing press invented to kill other people? Was the television? Was the computer? Was penicillin? Were all the technologies and tools of medicine and the health sciences invented to kill other people, or to save their lives? Please explain, in the light of the very partial list I have just given you, how you can substantiate the clam that "I suppose that all technologies were initially developed for the purpose of killing other humans."

However, I think I see your underlying point. You wish to maintain that humans are evil, right? And they use science for evil ends. Only a turn to religion can solve this problem, according to you. In light of your religion's blood-soaked history of cruelty and intolerance, of crusades and the burning of witches, of attempts to suppress the growth of human knowledge, would you care to try to back up your assertion?

You wrote:
Existential dread has nothing to do with fear of God's punishment. Existential dread is the fear that atheists experience when they recognize that their life is temporary, purposeless and meaningless. The dread is generated by the transformation of the question "What is the meaning of life?" into the conclusion "My life has no meaning whatsoever."

My reply:
You are wrong. I feel no such dread. And I dare say that most atheists feel no such dread. All people's lives have meaning while they are alive, and the meaning that their lives possess is a direct function of their efforts and struggle to shape that meaning. David, your religious beliefs are based on wishful thinking. You think that YOUR life would be meaningless in the absence of religious belief. Therefore, you choose to believe. But is it not obvious that believing in something does not make it true? David, what if -- as a thought experiment -- it could actually be proved that God does not exist? Please tell me what you would do with your life, in that case. Thanks again for your replies.

A3

Hi All,

It took me two days just to do a bit of catching-up here, wow! Despite the many words, things don’t seem to be moving past the yes-no level. As usual both sides have their good and not so good points.
Most what the science-is-everything side is saying is, in my view, correct, we have indeed come a long way but the motivation to move has not always been to better humanity. Besides, all we have discovered, from spear to cloning, can be used for good as well as bad. However, although I don’t believe in a brick wall, there seems to exist an edge to our physical existence that scientist have been running frantically along back and forth trying to cross. Everything to do with our spirit-side, science has not been able to come close to other than by studying its effects, like human behavior. Not too many scientist will concede to that limitation, afterall if we can know everything about our own backyard (galaxy?), in time we will know everything about everybody’s backyard (galaxy?). That’s when I say: so what? Unless it helps us live better lifes in the here and now, but there still is widespread hunger.

The religion-is-everything side I also partly agree with because it is the only approach that gives life its purpose. I don’t know about you but I don’t like doing anything purposeless or pointless and an existence that ends totally at death, especially if before the age of 30, is then pointless.
I don’t like mysteries one bit and since I read Swedenborg there don't have to be any. Besides the nature of love is so that we cannot love mysteries, in fact we cannot love what we don’t know or don’t understand. Children can only love their parents in so far as they get to know them. We can only really appreciate or love a partner, a sport or our work if we know more than just something about it. My love for God is based on what I know, not on what I don’t know. Of course it is impossible to know God fully but we can have a pretty good idea based on how we interpret Revelation, which is the only source for this kind of information.

We believe revelation has always existed in one form or another, thus before the Bible which was adapted to the people of Israel and later to Christians. But that we now have the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Third Testament in the Writings through Swedenborg (1688-1772) while this is adapted to the scientific mind if you like. Much on this can be read in an article “Swedenborg and Modern Science” by Ian J. Thompson (Physics Department, University of Surrey, Guildford GU2 5XH, U.K April, 1988. Published in: Network Newsletter of “The Scientific and Medical Network,” 36 (1988) 3-8.
The contentious point about people being evil. We do have to be taught very early on that we have to share, this doesn’t come natural. We have to learn that we as individuals are not the centre of the universe, this is news too. But ‘evil’ is a worst scenario word. We are born with hereditary tendencies towards good as well as evil but it is up to us if we develop our selfish and looking-after-number-one attitude or not. The following may be of interest:
.
Hope this helps.

Regards
Adriaan

rainbow walking

rw: Only if one lives ones life without a purpose created by himself. What purpose does it serve to live ones life as chattel of an incomprehensible god? Besides, isn't desiring eternal life as selfish as wanting to extend ones life in this world? Xians pretend that it is a virtue to become a believer when, in reality, without these promises of rewards beyond the grave, they'd never give theism a second glance. People who sell out there lives in this life for un-provable rewards in an unverifiable after-life are guilty of abandoning themselves and their fellow humans for selfish motives.