wildernesse

Because maybe your nasty little brats are provoking their nasty little brats. Maybe it's the other way around. Either way, both families have some nasty little brats throwing rocks and making it dangerous for the rest.

--tibac

tdekeyser

George H.W. Bush, (R) as Presidential Nominee for the Republican party; 1987-AUG-27:

"No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."


Bob Jones Jr., of Bob Jones University, referring to the Roman Catholic Church:

"Romanism is a pagan counterfeit of the Christian religion, ancient paganism and idolatry, claiming to be the church which Christ founded...The Roman Church is not another Christian denomination. It is a satanic counterfeit, an ecclesiastic tyranny over the souls of men, not to bring them to salvation but to hold them bound in sin and to hurl them into eternal damnation. It is the old harlot of the book of the Revelation--'the Mother of Harlots.'...Threats and fear have been her weapons. Her wealth has dazzled, her ceremonies blinded the eyes of her devotees to the blackness of her purpose and the rottenness of her heart." 6


Josh McDowell, at a Youth for Christ rally in 1994:

"Tolerance is the worst roar of all, including tolerance for homosexuals, feminists, and religions that don't follow Christ."


Pat Robertson, quoted in M. Schwartz & K. J. Cooper, "Equal Rights Initiative in Iowa Attacked," Washington Post, 1992-AUG-23, Page A15:

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."


Am I making anyone mad? These people ATTACK us at no provocation. We must DEFEND ourselves.

Starboy

seebs, I will fight to the death to defend our right to disagree with each other but you keep missing the point. Since when do your Christian beliefs and codes of conduct have anything to do with what I say or advocate. If it is a core teaching of Christianity to love and be tolerant then why would anything I say or do change how Christians behave. I ask you again. WHERE ARE ALL THE TOLERANT AND LOVING CHRISTIANS?

Starboy

seebs

The real world.

Really. Bibles just leap out of hiding and whack you? Or is it *people* who do this?

Right. And you intolerant guys, please, do the rest of us a favor: Fuck off. Go be intolerant somewhere else. Me and my friends - atheists and Christians alike - would like to be allowed to go about our dreary lives, enjoying the occasional sunset, sitting up until 3AM having *fun* debating religious points with no expectation that anyone will be converted. We're happy.

You and Falwell are wrong for the same reasons; you're no better than him, he's no better than you. You're both wrong. Falwell gives people a reason to hate Christians; you give them a reason to hate atheists.

Good. Let's you and Falwell fight. Leave me and my friends out of it.

Gosh, that'd be very convincing. Definitely do; you'd better warn Rufus that his wife is trying to kill him. Better get in touch with my friend Dave, who's been an atheist for as long as I can remember; if he were aware of my perfidy, I'm sure we wouldn't have been best men at each others' weddings.

Or maybe, just maybe, you should acknowledge the possibility that your fight isn't with *all* Christians, but with *some* Christians, and that you have become the thing you hate.

wildernesse

Wow--people of the religious right being stupid.

Why don't you get out and vote? And organize against the religious right in politics? That's something that you could actually do--but I agree it's more fun to ride around trying to get some random Lutheran's head on a pike. Also the first might make you allies with *shudder* Christians or other believers.


--tibac

seebs

Because, you see, Christians are *people*. And we don't always follow all of our teachings very well, especially when we're attacked, and we get emotional.

You can surely appreciate how having your basic beliefs about the structure of the world attacked, dismissed, and derided, could make someone a little defensive.

Certainly, it wouldn't fill you with a desire to reach out to the people attacking you and say "hey, let's be friends".

You're driving them away as fast as you can, and still you ask?

tdekeyser

Intolerance against Jesus in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament):
A mob attempts to kill Jesus: Jesus was teaching in the synagogue at his home town of Nazareth. The townspeople were infuriated by his message and attempted to kill him by pushing him over a hill or cliff.
Luke 4:28-29: "And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong."


Some Jewish leaders plot to kill Jesus: They accuse him of breaking the Sabbath and committing blasphemy:
John 5:18: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."


Executing Jesus: According to the Gospels, Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers who reluctantly agreed kill him after pressure from Jewish leaders and from a Jewish mob. Many theologians believe that these passages were written as Christian religious propaganda, to shift the blame for Jesus' execution away from the Romans and onto the Jews.
Gospels of Peter, Chapters 4 & 5; Mark 15; Matthew 27; Luke 23 and John 19 record the events associated with the crucifixion. (The Gospel of Peter was apparently written before the remaining 4 gospels. But it never made it into the Christian Scriptures.) 1



Religious Intolerance against followers of Jesus:
Jewish leaders cursed and expelled a formerly blind man: Jesus healed a blind man. The man was attacked by Jewish leaders for following Jesus:
John 9:28-34 "Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. The man answered and said unto them...Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins [i.e. illegitimate], and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out."


Jewish temple officials are intolerant of the teachings of the Jewish Christians. The officials arrested them because of their religious beliefs:
Acts 4:1-3 "And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide."


Stephen is kidnapped; his captors prepare to perjure themselves: Some Jews disagreed with the teachings of Stephen. They kidnapped him and prepared to lie in the Jewish court about his instructions. Their hatred of other teachings was so great that they were willing to commit perjury.
Acts 6:9-13 "Then there arose certain of the synagogue...[who were] disputing with Stephen...And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council, And set up false witnesses..."


Stephen was stoned to death: He was killed because of his religious beliefs.
Acts 7:57-58 "Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him..."


The Christian movement underwent serious religious persecution: This started immediately after Stephen's execution. The apostles stayed in Jerusalem, but the general membership fled through Judea and Samaria..
Acts 8:1 "...And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles."


The Jewish high priests ordered the arrest of all Christians: Saul, uttering murderous threats against the Christian movement asked the high priest for authority to arrest Christians and return them to Jerusalem.
Acts 9:1-14 "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem."


Perjury and rioting against those of other beliefs: Some Jews accused Paul of bringing a number of Greek Christians into the temple, thereby polluting the holy place. Their accusation was not based on any solid evidence; they had only seen Trophimus with Paul earlier in the city. They angered the whole city over the event, which never happened. Their intolerance and hatred was so great that they made groundless accusations against Paul and the other Christians.
Acts 21:28-29 "...This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple."


Kill those who hold other beliefs: Some Jews in Jerusalem listened to a sermon by Paul, and were so enraged by his different teachings that they decided that he had no right to continue living.
Acts 22:22-23 "And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live."


Persecution by Saul of the Jewish Christian movement: Paul describes how he persecuted the Jewish Christians.
Acts 26:9-11: "I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice [vote] against them.And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities."


Persecution by Saul of the Jewish Christian movement: Paul describes how he persecuted the Jewish Christians and attempted to destroy the movement.
Galatians 1:13 "For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted [devastated] it."




Intolerance against non-Christians:
Jesus' disciples call for murder of villagers: Jesus' teachings were rejected by the inhabitants of a village in Samaria. His disciples asked that he engage in black magic, and exterminate the people of the village by issuing a curse. Jesus refused to do it, and simply moved on to the next village.
Luke 9:52-56: "...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."


Persons who reject the gospel will be condemned. At the final judgment after death, those who have heard the teachings of Jesus, and rejected them, will be condemned, presumably to Hell for all eternity. No exception is listed for those who have never accepted the Gospel because they never heard it.
John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."


Peter devalues all religious faith groups other than his own. He says that salvation is only available through Jesus.
Acts 4:10-12 "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole...Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." There are a variety of interpretations of this passage: Most conservative Christians accept this passage on its face value -- that non-Christians will remain unsaved, and will be eternally tormented in Hell after death. These verses have inspired many missionaries to go into the non-Christian world and win as many religious converts as they can. Such punishment of all non-Christians certainly satisfies the definition of the term "religious intolerance."
Many religious liberals reject a literal interpretation of this passage. They might argue that a baby born in India has about a 98% chance of becoming a non-Christian adult. A baby born in Saudi Arabia has about a 99% chance of growing up to be a non-Christian adult. If trusting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only route to salvation, then 98% of East Indians and 99% of Saudi Arabians will automatically remain unsaved. After their death, according to other biblical statements, they would be tortured in Hell for all eternity without hope of mercy. Such a fate is incompatible with a loving and just God.
The Roman Catholic Church takes an intermediate position: that even though followers of other religions do not accept Jesus Christ, it is possible for them to receive salvation by following their own religion. However, this mercy would not presumably be extended to individuals who have been raised as agnostics or atheists, or have converted to agnosticism or atheism.

Condemnation, cursing of non-Christians: Barnabas and Paul met a Jew in Cyprus called Bar-jesus. In an act of religious intolerance, they disagreed with his teaching, called him a sorcerer and false prophet. They engaged in sorcery (black magic) by issued a curse against him, and making him blind.
Acts 13:6-11 "...they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Bar-jesus...[who] withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then...Paul, filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand."


Persecution of those of other beliefs: While Barnabas and Paul were in Antioch, leading women and men of the city persecuted Baranabas and Paul and expelled them.
Acts 13:50 "But the Jews stirred up the devout and honorable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts."


Teaching that followers of other religions are evil: The author recommends that Christians avoid close relationships with non-Christians. He implies that non-Christians are automatically unrighteous. He associates Christianity with "light" and other religions with "darkness." Because this passage from 6:14 to 7:1 abruptly changes topic, and
uses many words that are not used by Paul elsewhere, and
has a "striking affinity" with ideas expressed in the Dead Sea Scrolls,

some theologians believe that the passage was written by someone else and added to Paul's writing later. 3
2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Religious hatred directed against Jews and Jewish Christians: Paul directs a blast of religious propaganda against the Jews, and in particular against the Jewish Christian movement:
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16: "...ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."

Hugo Holbling

Europe? How about the many on these very boards?

seebs

Well, you're annoying me a bit. What, exactly, do I have to do with these people?

You're as looney as the chick whose husband started yelling about how gays go to hell at some guy's funeral. You're posting in random CAPITALS because you CAN'T STOP SHOUTING.

Calm down. Chill. Yeah, you're under attack. Me too. Shall we agree to disagree on the philosophical issues, agree to agree on freedom of belief (including atheism), and fight those people, or would you rather fight them *and* all the moderates of the world?

All your current path can do is polarize moderates into extremists. If you want that, then you're not fighting *against* Falwell; you're fighting *for* him, because that's what *he* wants, too.

seebs

I can do you one better.

Intolerance against Christians on IIDB:

"Being mad at religious groups and it's members is NOT "hate". It is just being mad at injustices. "

There you have it. Intolerance. It's the same everywhere.

If you want to join the fight against intolerance, feel free, but be aware that, by its nature, it's a fairly calm, laid-back fight. More aikido than karate.