Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nic Tamzek · 12-27-2002, 02:38 PM

Clone Ranger
The Rael World Comes to New York

The Village Voice/August 29, 2001
By Rebecca Segall

http://www.rickross.com/reference/ra...aelians16.html

Quote:

[...]

Dr. Brigitte Boissellier, a former biochemistry professor at Hamilton College in upstate New York, brought the Raelians much notoriety last month, insisting that despite heavy opposition to the idea of human cloning among bioethicists and throughout the scientific community, she will persevere in her attempts to clone human beings. Like all Raelians, Dr. Boissellier believes that advanced methods of human cloning will lead to immortality. After all, the Elohim-aliens who created all life on earth-became immortal this way.

Dr. Boissellier is currently leading a three-person Raelian research team, including a geneticist, a biochemist, and a gynecologist, that has been experimenting with cattle cloning and "is making progress toward human cell cloning." She says five more scientists will be joining her lab this fall.

[...]

What is the nature and intent of the Elohim? Why is human cloning a mandatory goal? Why is Dr. Boissellier a Raelian? What are Parent's intentions in New York? And, most bizarre, why are Raelians better looking than, say, the average Moonie?

Parent puckers up her glossy, red full lips, takes a deep breath, pauses, and ponders. Finally, she replies in a soft French accent. "To create a painting," she says, referring to one of the many lively works on the walls of her West 52nd Street apartment, "is like an orgasm [accent on the a]."

"The Elohim created us, like we create paintings. We were created out of pleasure, and therefore our destiny is supposed to be pleasure. The more in touch we are with our senses, beauty, and passions, the more one we are with our creators, infinity, and with ourselves." Because of the emphasis on aesthetic and physical pleasures, Raelians devote time to toning and polishing their looks.

"Raelians do seem to be a good-looking group," says Susan Palmer, a Canadian sociologist who is writing a book about them. "Good-looking people may get more positive feedback, and they stay. Also, Rael [the Raelians' leader; see first sidebar] advises not having children until you're totally self-realized (and if you want to be cloned eventually, then you have to make the choice between the two forms of reproduction). And they eat holistic food and promote exercise and don't drink alcohol or coffee so they stay healthier."

So with Raelianism's sexy PR, Parent may not have a hard time recruiting members in the city, despite the religion's central basic assumptions: the existence and cosmic dominance of loving extraterrestrials. Parent, who helped bring nearly 100 Raelians into the fold in Florida over the last seven years, is confident that she will have even greater success convincing New Yorkers to believe that highly artistic, science-minded, sextraterrestrials created our world, and that-through cloning-we will achieve immortality.

Rael's message has captured the imagination of an eclectic following, including sex industry workers and artists. As for the scientific community, Dr. Boissellier finds it easy to explain Raelianism's appeal. "The more scientists look at the human genome and the more we see how sophisticated it is, the harder it becomes to believe that it all happened by chance through evolution," she explains. "So evolutionary theory is considered less and less viable among scientists, and more and more are joining the Raelians."

She says that after she discovered Raelianism eight years ago, she began reading about ancient gods and the Bible. "I am a scholar," she says. "I need it all to make rational sense. And Raelianism is the first creation story to make sense to me." She says that an estimated 20 percent of the religion's membership comes from the scientific community.

Another similarity: overestimating, and then trumpeting, the agreement of the scientific community. I would be surprised if there were more than the DI's handful of PhDs that were pro-Rael.

sakrilege · 12-27-2002, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Dr. Boissellier believes that advanced methods of human cloning will lead to immortality.

I'm having a very hard time visualizing how this would happen.

Quote:

She says that an estimated 20 percent of the religion's membership comes from the scientific community.

I would need to see the actual qualifications of the 'scientists' being included in this figure.

Nic Tamzek · 12-27-2002, 02:52 PM

Wow, it gets better and better!

Quote:

"In a sense, all Raelians are Jews," says Rael. "The Raelians have a particular interest in Israel because our goal is to rebuild the third temple," in the form of a government-sanctioned embassy for extraterrestrials. "It says in the Bible that whoever devotes themselves to the building of the third temple is a real Jew. So we are therefore more Jewish than most born Jews." The Raelians have the means to begin building, but are waiting for Israel to legitimize their request. If Israel doesn't cooperate by 2035, Rael teaches that the Elohim will stop protecting Israel from its surrounding neighbors. And if a more alien-friendly country agrees to build the embassy at any time before then, Israel's extraterrestrial-spiritual protection will be lifted.

Rael had Jewish ties before his encounter with the Elohim. "My mother had thought that her Jewish boyfriend had impregnated her, and that he was my father," he says. His family welcomed the new explanation. "When I told my mother and grandmother the true story, my grandmother was relieved because she said that she had seen UFOs lingering around the house over the years and had never told anyone."

"I'm Jewish because I think maybe one of my mother's boyfriends was Jewish".

More bad reasons to clone:

Quote:

Gary says the group has a list of more than 100 people waiting to clone themselves. She says there are quite a few homosexuals on the list (the Raelians advertise that they are more open to gays than any other pro-cloning group). The Raelians feel that cloning offers gays a wonderful opportunity to have children with their own genes. "They should have the right," says Gary.

[...]

Non-Raelian advocates of human cloning include mostly infertile couples who want a biologically related child and have exhausted other means, or parents yearning to replace a child they've lost. In fact, after four years of attempting to raise funds to support her research efforts, Dr. Boissellier finally received money from a couple who wished to clone their deceased 10-month-old son. The child had died after a minor operation had gone awry. Last June, the couple donated $500,000 to Clonaid, the research lab Dr. Boissellier currently directs. Recently, however, the couple decided not to go through with the procedure.

"No, Billy, you're not *really* Billy, he was killed in a car accident when he was five, but we're going to raise you to turn into our original Billy because we can't get over our loss like normal people."

Quote:

Raelians are intent on cloning human cells because they believe that this is just the first, "primitive" stage of cloning. "The second stage will include cloning a person's DNA within seconds into a full-grown 18-year-old, and stage three includes mapping his brain, and downloading it into the clone," explains Dr. Boissellier. "This is how we will obtain immortality." How will we grow a DNA cell within seconds into a full-grown man or woman? "How can I say? The research hasn't been done yet. But within 50 years, we will be debating the ethics of accepting this new scientific development, I am sure."

This appears to be the definitive page archiving Raelian-related material:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/raelians.html

pz · 12-27-2002, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sakrilege

Isn't cloning essentially asexual reproduction? There are species that reproduce that way but so few that it is highly unusual.

No, not at all. The vast majority of organisms on this planet reproduce asexually. We metazoans just have a biased perspective.

Quote:

Sexual reproduction has all the advantages of diversity. Are there any advantages to asexual reproduction?

Yes.

If you're perfect to begin with, why bother tainting your flawless genetics with the corrupting contribution of a lesser being?

If you are unlikely to meet a compatible conspecific in your lifetime, waiting for a mate or mating opportunity is going to compromise your reproductive success rather severely. You're better off getting started without him/her.

If environments in which you can live are transient or rare, the best strategy for taking advantage of them may be to go with a proven formula (yours), and fling progeny far and wide, hoping that one stumbles onto a good place to thrive.

Nic Tamzek · 12-27-2002, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sakrilege
All right, let me show my ignorance...

Isn't cloning essentially asexual reproduction? There are species that reproduce that way but so few that it is highly unusual. Sexual reproduction has all the advantages of diversity. Are there any advantages to asexual reproduction?

In certain environments there appear to be selective advantages -- you can, after all, pass on all of your genes to each offspring, instead of just half of them.

However, this means that you and all of your offspring have the same vulnerabilities, and the next disease that comes your way will wipe out the whole lot.

This has been a significant problem for certain crops, tree plantations, etc. -- catastrophic loss. You can't just pick the fastest-growing tree, clone it (via cuttings or whatnot), and assume that this will produce the most wood from a chunk of land.

I can't wait for the brouhaha if/when the first cloned boy is born to a virgin female. Batten the hatches!

sakrilege · 12-27-2002, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nic Tamzek
[B]No, Billy, you're not *really* Billy, he was killed in a car accident when he was five, but we're going to raise you to turn into our original Billy because we can't get over our loss like normal people.

And if the 2nd Billy isn't exactly the same personality ....??

Quote:

The second stage will include cloning a person's DNA within seconds into a full-grown 18-year-old, and stage three includes mapping his brain, and downloading it into the clone

It would be easier just to stop the aging process!!

hyzer · 12-30-2002, 07:01 AM

I have already heard x-ian fundamentalists claim that a clone can't have a soul!

As if an individual that is the result of cloning won't have enough problems in life . . . . . .

Mageth · 12-30-2002, 07:06 AM

I have already heard x-ian fundamentalists claim that a clone can't have a soul!

Yup; I heard D. James Kennedy, IIRC, on the radio speculating that a clone might not have a soul.

Which is true, BTW; no one has a "soul" in the sense he'd be referring to.

hyzer · 12-30-2002, 07:54 AM

of course, I agree - I am just very affraid of the consequences of that kind of thinking . . . . .

imagine nut-case fundies killing "clones" and claiming that since they believe the clone has no soul their act was not murder, but actually god's work!

Mageth · 12-30-2002, 09:36 AM

I figured that's what you meant. It is scary - of course much of the ranting of religious types is pretty damned scary.

Would a theist claiming a cloned human does not have a "soul" imply that the theist thinks the soul is delivered in the sperm, or imparted by god when the sperm and egg do their happy dance? How does a soul squeeze into a fertilized egg?

Either way, a glaring problem if you play out that belief string is - what about identical twins? Does only one of them get a soul, do they split one soul, or does God make an exception?

If God makes an exception, why couldn't he do the same for a cloned human?

Getting right down to it, the whole thing's a silly concept. Idiots among us.

12-30-2002, 07:01 AM	#17
hyzer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: philadelphia Posts: 1,844	soul-less clone I have already heard x-ian fundamentalists claim that a clone can't have a soul! As if an individual that is the result of cloning won't have enough problems in life . . . . . .

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12-30-2002, 07:06 AM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I have already heard x-ian fundamentalists claim that a clone can't have a soul! Yup; I heard D. James Kennedy, IIRC, on the radio speculating that a clone might not have a soul. Which is true, BTW; no one has a "soul" in the sense he'd be referring to.

12-30-2002, 07:54 AM	#19
hyzer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: philadelphia Posts: 1,844	of course, I agree - I am just very affraid of the consequences of that kind of thinking . . . . . imagine nut-case fundies killing "clones" and claiming that since they believe the clone has no soul their act was not murder, but actually god's work!

12-30-2002, 09:36 AM	#20
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I figured that's what you meant. It is scary - of course much of the ranting of religious types is pretty damned scary. Would a theist claiming a cloned human does not have a "soul" imply that the theist thinks the soul is delivered in the sperm, or imparted by god when the sperm and egg do their happy dance? How does a soul squeeze into a fertilized egg? Either way, a glaring problem if you play out that belief string is - what about identical twins? Does only one of them get a soul, do they split one soul, or does God make an exception? If God makes an exception, why couldn't he do the same for a cloned human? Getting right down to it, the whole thing's a silly concept. Idiots among us.

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