Freethought & Rationalism Archive

leonarde · 03-27-2003, 02:17 PM

I don't think I'm being defensive at all. But I think it ironic that people who pride themselves on skepicism on religious matters are so eager to accept the mereest Iraqi propaganda just because they dislike George Bush.

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Leonarde the Pentagon openly admits that the 51st did not surrender only the commander or atleast who they believe to be the commander.

Well, when a unit "melts away"
there is no telling how many of the constituent troops truly went home and how many joined other units. ONLY the commander of a division can surrender that division AS A UNIT. Militarily a unit which surrenders or "melts away" is defunct. That's the long and the short of it.
During WWII late in the war there were many instances in which German units were so decimated by losses, desertions etc. that the surrenders of those units directly produced only a small number of POWs. Nonetheless, those were "official" surrenders.

Cheers!

ex-idaho · 03-27-2003, 02:30 PM

Quote:

But I think it ironic that people who pride themselves on skepicism on religious matters are so eager to accept the mereest Iraqi propaganda just because they dislike George Bush.

I don't know where you are getting that I am beliveing any Iraqi propagnda. I clearly stated that before I believe anything I want it confirmed by several sources. As far as I know there is really no credible information coming from the Iraqi government so I would discout that completely. However if they make a statement that can be confirmed by an outside news source then I will accept it as credible.

I also admit that I do not like G Bush or his administration but that is not why dismiss statements from this administration. Like most people if a person lies to me numerous times I am going to become skeptical of anything that comes out of that guys mouth. Bush and his staff have been caught lying numerous times and have attempted to spin it off. Apparently this has worked to some degree seeing as people like yourself still believe him to be an honorable and decent human being.

leonarde · 03-27-2003, 02:35 PM

Partial post:

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Leonarde just what would it take for you doubt the current administration and its motives?

As I mentioned on another thread, I see no reason to speculate (and that's what it is: speculation) as to motives. And that applies not only to THIS administration. Whether a given unit commander surrendered is a question of FACT, not "motivation". And as such we will probably eventually get a definitive answer. But I suspect that once we do, the Bush-bashers will long since have moved on to some other tendentious position.
In the past few months in which I have participated in threads about Iraq and (to a lesser degree) North Korea, I noticed that so many of my interlocutors were not at all interested in those countries; they were merely interested in trashing Bush vis a vis his policies related to those countries. So for instance I (in a rare move) started a thread "What is Saddam/Iraq really like?" . But again, the only interest of my interlocutors was in making some preposterous equations between the US and Iraq, between Bush and Hussein (such equations are, alas, all too common in this forum). See:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...saddam+hussein

Cheers!

ex-idaho · 03-27-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

my interlocutors were not at all interested in those countries; they were merely interested in trashing Bush vis a vis his policies related to those countries.

Isn't that what it boils down to if your a US citizen? Regardless of what the leaders of other nations are like as a US citizen I can only hope to change things in that country through my government. If my president is supporting ploicies that I feel would be detrimental or ineffective I must criticize my president. If my president is making statements that are proven to be false then I must criticize my president. To suggest that whatever our government does is fine because it is still better than N Korea or Iraq is ludicrous.

Yellum Notnef · 03-27-2003, 02:42 PM

This thread has gotten WAY off topic.

And I believe the last few posts have answered my question. Leonarde is indeed the same leonarde who was sure that the Shroud was real.

My original question about if anyone has seen the 3000 suits has also been answered and the answer seems to be no.

leonarde · 03-27-2003, 02:45 PM

Partial post:

Quote:

Just in the last 7 days we have seen numerous bits of disinformation (lies)
exposed and wriiten off by our spineless media as mistakes or incomplete information.

And how do you know when someone is lying?
To you it seems self-evident; but I lived through the Vietnam War. I was already a middle-aged bloke during Desert Storm. I served in the military. I have at least a vague notion of how easy it is in the confusion of war to get details, and sometimes far MORE than details, wrong. The very fact that in 7 days corrections and clarifications are being made by the Pentagon and American news sources is indicative that they are trying to get it right. And hence are not lying.

I think, besides the anti-Bush trope of this forum, another problem is that so many of the younger participating members have no real living memory of a ground operation by US forces: today's 20 year old was 8 at the time of the first Gulf War. Hardly a discriminating age in the political arena.

Cheers!

leonarde · 03-27-2003, 02:49 PM

Partial post:

Quote:

my interlocutors were not at all interested in those countries; they were merely interested in trashing Bush vis a vis his policies related to those countries.
---------------------------------------------
Isn't that what it boils down to if your a US citizen? Regardless of what the leaders of other nations are like as a US citizen I can only hope to change things in that country through my government. If my president is supporting ploicies
that I feel would be detrimental or ineffective I must criticize my president.[...]

But without the knowledge of what other nations are like and how they function, there's no true way to evaluate the policies.

Cheers!

leonarde · 03-27-2003, 02:51 PM

Partial post:

Quote:

My original question about if anyone has seen the 3000 suits has also been
answered and the answer seems to be no.

Define "anyone". There's lots of stuff I haven't seen on TV but I know happened. The Holocaust for one.

Cheers!

Yellum Notnef · 03-27-2003, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde
Partial post:
Define "anyone". There's lots of stuff I haven't seen on TV but I know happened. The Holocaust for one.

Cheers!

I've seen plenty of footage on TV to assure me that the Holocaust was real,but this has nothing to do with the OT.

All I wanted to know was if anyone here has seen any pictures of the 3000 suits that were allegedly found in the hospital. So far nobody has even though there have been almost a half dozen OTHER photos shown from within the hospital.

When the words "breaking news" flashes on the screen and the news is about finding 3000 suits and masks,a person expects to see a photo of all these suits and masks and not some OTHER photo of some OTHER shit they found in the hospital.

But I guess I'm just a cynic who should be more trusting and chalk up the total lack of photos to the camera breaking or just happening to run out of film as they were trying to get a photo of this huge stockpile of suits and masks.

Maybe I should start a thread asking if anyone here has seen a picture of that hair you have across your ass.

capsaicin67 · 03-27-2003, 04:17 PM

Fenton,
FYI, last night [early a.m. actually] at approx 0120 US central time MSNBC showed another very brief clip of some items that I belive were implied to be examples of the suits, again. I don't think that it was the same clip that I told you I saw when the story was first breaking. It sounds similar in quality, perhaps, to the one that you said you have seen since? It was not a thorough visual examination of the suits, and they were definitely not numbered nor shown in a great pile. Thus, it was of negligible quality to found any sort of argument on, but yes, they did purport to "show them" [some]. I'm not advocating any particular agenda in sharing this, just contributing my observation of what I have seen per your OP.
p.s.-the story does seem to have changed from 3k to 6k, also.

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03-27-2003, 02:42 PM	#45
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	This thread has gotten WAY off topic. And I believe the last few posts have answered my question. Leonarde is indeed the same leonarde who was sure that the Shroud was real. My original question about if anyone has seen the 3000 suits has also been answered and the answer seems to be no.

03-27-2003, 04:17 PM	#50
capsaicin67 Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gold coast plain, sea, scrubland, mountain range. Posts: 20,955	Fenton, FYI, last night [early a.m. actually] at approx 0120 US central time MSNBC showed another very brief clip of some items that I belive were implied to be examples of the suits, again. I don't think that it was the same clip that I told you I saw when the story was first breaking. It sounds similar in quality, perhaps, to the one that you said you have seen since? It was not a thorough visual examination of the suits, and they were definitely not numbered nor shown in a great pile. Thus, it was of negligible quality to found any sort of argument on, but yes, they did purport to "show them" [some]. I'm not advocating any particular agenda in sharing this, just contributing my observation of what I have seen per your OP. p.s.-the story does seem to have changed from 3k to 6k, also.

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