Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hired Gun · 05-14-2003, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craig
Well, seeing as how they are two completely different things I don't know how that's picky.

nyuck nyuck nyuck!
er, is it, hyuck, hyuck, hyuck?

A.S.A. Jones

TomboyMom · 05-14-2003, 03:33 PM

Cutting out all the crap about gravity and the year 2035, or whatever it was, I think Hired Gun's main points can be summed up in these excerpts:
<<the Bible is inerrant in the truth it intends to
reveal...

The truth that the Bible intends to reveal is the
truth about man's nature and the nature of the God who made him.>>
So let's take a look at those statements.
"The Bible is inerrant..." Sez who? How do you know? Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, however ridiculous, but if you want it to carry any weight, it should have some basis, such as observation, scientific verification, etc. I find the bible to be highly errant in the truth it intends to reveal, such as that the universe was created by god, which I will assume is one of the basic truths you believe the bible to intend.
I think that you are actually not open to believing that the bible is errant, so whenever anyone points out a bible statement that is patently ridiculous or already proven false, you just define it out of the truth that the bible intends to reveal.

"it intends to reveal"
Of course, the bible is a book, and so technically can't have any intent. Only the authors of the bible could have any intent. One of the best ways of determiniing their intent is to use the plain english definition of their words. So when the authors of the bible say, just to choose a small random example, "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."(Genesis 7:23), the authors probably intended to say that God killed every living thing on the earth except Noah and what was on the ark. If you say that this is not what the authors intended, you are torturing and misreading their words. If you admit that this was their intent, then you don't worship a very nice or plausible God.

"The truth that the bible intends to reveal is..." Who died and made you omniscient? How did you come into this special knowledge of what the bible really intends? If you are interpreting what the bible really intends, as different from what it plainly says, then you are creating your own interpretation of "the truth", and don't need the bible as intermediary.

Finally, and speaking only for myself, I don't think I would agree with what you believe the bible says about "the
truth about man's nature and the nature of the God who made him" even if I agreed with what it was. I will guess that this would include that God created the earth and "Man" [sic], that God gave his only begotten son to die on the cross to save us from our sins, that those who believe in Jesus Christ will live forever in heaven with God after they die...Would those be some of the basics? What a crock! Those are some really whacko and destructive beliefs, Hired Gun, not to mention based on no evidence whatsoever, other than that self-same bible, which is circular.

Well, those are a couple of my thoughts.

Rene

mark9950 · 06-12-2003, 11:53 PM

Hired gun (A.S.A. Jones) is the www.ex-atheist website.Yes I emailed him and told him to come here for discussion awhile back.

Being an ex-christian,I cannot believe that he can believe the flat earth of the bible.

the hypocritical God who cannot follow his own laws due to semantics such as calling murder killing to justify it,and this God expects us to follow the laws that he cannot even follow.(do as I say not as I do.God is a poor example of anything)

This jesus character that was a so called messiah that was never mentioned as a prophecy in the OT.

:boohoo:

Primordial Groove · 06-14-2003, 06:28 AM

Thats a funny website. Perhaps you don't know as much about psychology as you think. If you did, you would see the wonderful mindfuck you hit yourself with.

But hey, if you are happy now that you have the feelings of belonging and meaning you so desperately sought, more power to you.

mark9950 · 06-14-2003, 06:44 PM

May I ask what do you mean and what are the intentions of your response?

Hired Gun · 06-15-2003, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
Hired gun (A.S.A. Jones) is the www.ex-atheist website.Yes I emailed him and told him to come here for discussion awhile back.

Being an ex-christian,I cannot believe that he can believe the flat earth of the bible.

the hypocritical God who cannot follow his own laws due to semantics such as calling murder killing to justify it,and this God expects us to follow the laws that he cannot even follow.(do as I say not as I do.God is a poor example of anything)

This jesus character that was a so called messiah that was never mentioned as a prophecy in the OT.

:boohoo:

You never wrote me to invite me here. You wrote a private e-mail that gave no indication of your intent to post my reply to a forum. I discovered this thread through my statistics server. I consider your transaction as cowardly because it amounts to starting a discussion where criticisms can flow unchallenged, without the input of the person who has received the challenge.

Why not join me in the discussion about morality on T-web? The debate takes place after the article. http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...6&pagenumber=1

Of course, if any of you would like to continue the debate here, I would be more than happy to continue it on infidels.

A.S.A. Jones

ScottDNV21 · 06-15-2003, 08:26 AM

Godless Dave,

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Actually I respect his point. Much of the Bible was not even intended to be taken literally. Fundies are Christianity's own worst enemy. And I think when we infidels concentrate too much on the errancy of the Bible we lose the attention of all the Christians who are not Biblical literalists.

Can you empirically substantiate that claim?

goat37 · 06-15-2003, 01:19 PM

HiredGun, I think you need to pray for God to inspire you how to create a decent webpage.

I looked at your site. I only wish there was a 3D image that I could look at that would prove to me that God was there... but there isn't. Do you stare at the sky and cross your eyes and hallucinate until you see him?

You can believe what you want. If it makes you feel better about your life, then I actually encourage you to do so! But you have no irrefutable proof of his existance.

God didn't exist until 2000 years ago when we came up with him. Ever occur to you that God only acted in ways that could be 'grasped' by people of that time? God didn't even mention that he was only including people of that part of the world, and he was just going to say 'to hell' with the humans on North America, Asia, etc... Why didn't he appear before that? There was civilizations on earth before the 'coming of Christ'.

Expanding on that last point, as I have said in other posts, if you lived in ancient rome, you would have believed in Roman mythology. Although no actual proof of their gods existed, they still believed and worshipped. We now look at those religions as mythology, and even a bit hokey. (who would really believe in that crap! right?)

Christianity is the same way, it is just a little more modern that right now is in a tough time because it is starting to be noted now all the fallacies and incorrect information that the bible contains. If God or Jesus wanted to prove their existance (which they obviously did if they were the inspiration for the bible in the first place) why not let them come now, when the WHOLE world is in contact with each other, we have a better understand of the world around us, and let him show us which is the right faith to believe?!?!?!

Ever wonder why 99% of people with IQ's at the genius level are either atheist or agnostic? They know that their mental limitations are way above someone that is of your intelligence, and therefore are not willing to just accept 'god did it' (spoken like a true white trash southerner) and actually seek proof. Everytime something is found that contradicts the bible, it gets dismissed by christians because 'it just can't be true!'. Get over it, just because people 2000 years ago believed the earth was flat, didn't make it flat.

Also, if what you say is true, then I say that God suffers from one of his own sins "sloth". If humans are so special, and so unique, and we are made in his image, why make our genetic makeup that close to other species on the planet? Why make so close to monkeys that we believe that we evolved from them? If you create something special and unique, doesn't that make it so it is unlike anything else?

For me, I am willing to 'look at the facts' and accept the world if there is no 'God'. I live my life the way that I want to, and if there is no heaven to go to, then I am alright with that because of the way that I know I had lived. On the flip side, i really do wish that God existed in the manner you speak of him. Who wouldn't? I would love to go to heaven, and have eternal bliss after I die... but I can set my needs and wants aside to look at the bigger picture. I think you hit a hard time in your life when you were atheist and honestly needed something to cling on to to make it all seem 'worth it'. Deny it all you want, but I'd place money on it, and you know it on the inside.

Feel free and spread love and notions of peace throughout the world, it sure needs more of it. But if I were you, I wouldn't base all of my beliefs on a book that has been proven inaccurate time and time again, and can't be taken literally.

mark9950 · 06-15-2003, 05:56 PM

I just wanted everyone elses opinion for a debate.

Me personnaly I would not care if someone posted my response for a debate about my viewpoints.Unless my points were too weak to withstand a debate.

I apologize if I offended you for it,but if you go earlier to this tread you were not offended when you tried to clear your meaning until I told everyone who you were.

Ted Hoffman · 06-16-2003, 12:20 AM

Quote:

. I think you hit a hard time in your life when you were atheist and honestly needed something to cling on to to make it all seem 'worth it'

You know, yesterday, after my fiancee had tried the "so you think 4 billion people are stupid?" crap (which I took apart with ease), she mellowed and said even if God does not exist, at least believing in "him" (oh, the sexism!) gives her hope, when she prays she believes she is not alone and it makes her feel safe and able to overcome challenges when she feels God is on her side.
She asked how can she live without believing in God?
I told her I am evidence that life is possible without God.

How are we ever gonna help these people? Religion is a fucking heroine. You get hooked once and life without it seems impossible.

Reminds me of Rainbow walkings (post-conversion) description of religion as guard rails - once you let go, you learn that you can still walk.
Even without the guard rails on bridges, the bridge is still the same same bridge - but people need something to lean to - however illusory.

I gave her Earl Dohertys the Jesus Puzzle - she stayed with it for 5 months and returned it at page 20. She said she doesnt want to start doubting and thinking

This ex-atheist guy never was an atheist in the first place. If he discusses issues with Robert Turkel, no wonder he has shit all twisted up.

05-14-2003, 03:33 PM	#32
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	I'll take a stab at it Cutting out all the crap about gravity and the year 2035, or whatever it was, I think Hired Gun's main points can be summed up in these excerpts: <<the Bible is inerrant in the truth it intends to reveal... The truth that the Bible intends to reveal is the truth about man's nature and the nature of the God who made him.>> So let's take a look at those statements. "The Bible is inerrant..." Sez who? How do you know? Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, however ridiculous, but if you want it to carry any weight, it should have some basis, such as observation, scientific verification, etc. I find the bible to be highly errant in the truth it intends to reveal, such as that the universe was created by god, which I will assume is one of the basic truths you believe the bible to intend. I think that you are actually not open to believing that the bible is errant, so whenever anyone points out a bible statement that is patently ridiculous or already proven false, you just define it out of the truth that the bible intends to reveal. "it intends to reveal" Of course, the bible is a book, and so technically can't have any intent. Only the authors of the bible could have any intent. One of the best ways of determiniing their intent is to use the plain english definition of their words. So when the authors of the bible say, just to choose a small random example, "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."(Genesis 7:23), the authors probably intended to say that God killed every living thing on the earth except Noah and what was on the ark. If you say that this is not what the authors intended, you are torturing and misreading their words. If you admit that this was their intent, then you don't worship a very nice or plausible God. "The truth that the bible intends to reveal is..." Who died and made you omniscient? How did you come into this special knowledge of what the bible really intends? If you are interpreting what the bible really intends, as different from what it plainly says, then you are creating your own interpretation of "the truth", and don't need the bible as intermediary. Finally, and speaking only for myself, I don't think I would agree with what you believe the bible says about "the truth about man's nature and the nature of the God who made him" even if I agreed with what it was. I will guess that this would include that God created the earth and "Man" [sic], that God gave his only begotten son to die on the cross to save us from our sins, that those who believe in Jesus Christ will live forever in heaven with God after they die...Would those be some of the basics? What a crock! Those are some really whacko and destructive beliefs, Hired Gun, not to mention based on no evidence whatsoever, other than that self-same bible, which is circular. Well, those are a couple of my thoughts. Rene

06-12-2003, 11:53 PM	#33
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	About this tread Hired gun (A.S.A. Jones) is the www.ex-atheist website.Yes I emailed him and told him to come here for discussion awhile back. Being an ex-christian,I cannot believe that he can believe the flat earth of the bible. the hypocritical God who cannot follow his own laws due to semantics such as calling murder killing to justify it,and this God expects us to follow the laws that he cannot even follow.(do as I say not as I do.God is a poor example of anything) This jesus character that was a so called messiah that was never mentioned as a prophecy in the OT. :boohoo:

06-14-2003, 06:44 PM	#35
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Primordial Groove May I ask what do you mean and what are the intentions of your response?

06-15-2003, 05:56 PM	#39
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Hired Gun I just wanted everyone elses opinion for a debate. Me personnaly I would not care if someone posted my response for a debate about my viewpoints.Unless my points were too weak to withstand a debate. I apologize if I offended you for it,but if you go earlier to this tread you were not offended when you tried to clear your meaning until I told everyone who you were.

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06-14-2003, 06:28 AM	#34
Primordial Groove Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 1,570	Thats a funny website. Perhaps you don't know as much about psychology as you think. If you did, you would see the wonderful mindfuck you hit yourself with. But hey, if you are happy now that you have the feelings of belonging and meaning you so desperately sought, more power to you.

06-15-2003, 01:19 PM	#38
goat37 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Corpus Christi, TX Posts: 37	HiredGun, I think you need to pray for God to inspire you how to create a decent webpage. I looked at your site. I only wish there was a 3D image that I could look at that would prove to me that God was there... but there isn't. Do you stare at the sky and cross your eyes and hallucinate until you see him? You can believe what you want. If it makes you feel better about your life, then I actually encourage you to do so! But you have no irrefutable proof of his existance. God didn't exist until 2000 years ago when we came up with him. Ever occur to you that God only acted in ways that could be 'grasped' by people of that time? God didn't even mention that he was only including people of that part of the world, and he was just going to say 'to hell' with the humans on North America, Asia, etc... Why didn't he appear before that? There was civilizations on earth before the 'coming of Christ'. Expanding on that last point, as I have said in other posts, if you lived in ancient rome, you would have believed in Roman mythology. Although no actual proof of their gods existed, they still believed and worshipped. We now look at those religions as mythology, and even a bit hokey. (who would really believe in that crap! right?) Christianity is the same way, it is just a little more modern that right now is in a tough time because it is starting to be noted now all the fallacies and incorrect information that the bible contains. If God or Jesus wanted to prove their existance (which they obviously did if they were the inspiration for the bible in the first place) why not let them come now, when the WHOLE world is in contact with each other, we have a better understand of the world around us, and let him show us which is the right faith to believe?!?!?! Ever wonder why 99% of people with IQ's at the genius level are either atheist or agnostic? They know that their mental limitations are way above someone that is of your intelligence, and therefore are not willing to just accept 'god did it' (spoken like a true white trash southerner) and actually seek proof. Everytime something is found that contradicts the bible, it gets dismissed by christians because 'it just can't be true!'. Get over it, just because people 2000 years ago believed the earth was flat, didn't make it flat. Also, if what you say is true, then I say that God suffers from one of his own sins "sloth". If humans are so special, and so unique, and we are made in his image, why make our genetic makeup that close to other species on the planet? Why make so close to monkeys that we believe that we evolved from them? If you create something special and unique, doesn't that make it so it is unlike anything else? For me, I am willing to 'look at the facts' and accept the world if there is no 'God'. I live my life the way that I want to, and if there is no heaven to go to, then I am alright with that because of the way that I know I had lived. On the flip side, i really do wish that God existed in the manner you speak of him. Who wouldn't? I would love to go to heaven, and have eternal bliss after I die... but I can set my needs and wants aside to look at the bigger picture. I think you hit a hard time in your life when you were atheist and honestly needed something to cling on to to make it all seem 'worth it'. Deny it all you want, but I'd place money on it, and you know it on the inside. Feel free and spread love and notions of peace throughout the world, it sure needs more of it. But if I were you, I wouldn't base all of my beliefs on a book that has been proven inaccurate time and time again, and can't be taken literally.

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