seebs

I don't believe that it "can't be avoided or changed". It can't be avoided or changed *COMPLETELY*, but the world can, and does, change.

I can't be a completely good person, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't take what steps I can towards goodness.

To a certain extent, the reason a given woman can't change the way she's seen is that none of the others are standing with her. This is, of course, vastly oversimplified; in fact, in the modern world, women *ARE* seen much more as people, and much less as sexual objects, than they were a hundred years ago, or a thousand.

Panta Pei

"Same bat time, same bat channel."

Batman is an atheist, luvluv.

PS I really thought this was going to be about the objectification of women in the Holey Buybull.

I am sorely disappointed.

tronvillain

Does the objectification of women as sexual objects constitue the primary form of their exploitation? Perhaps. I take it to mean something like "treating women as objects to be used for sexual gratification" which would seem to generally be a bad thing - women are obviously not objects. It does not follow from this that specific instances of objectification are a horrible thing. People constent to being "objects" all the time, but you don't treat non-waiters (incouding people who work as waiters but aren't at work at the moment) like waiters, so you don't treat prostitutes (including people who prostitute themselves but aren't at the moment) like prostitutes.

luvluv, get over yourself.

funnydog

This "objectification of women" is something I hear a lot of but I'm not entirely clear what it means:

So don't you have to broaden this to any job that you do for money?

But that happens to all of us, to a certain extent, in various aspects of life. I'm useful to my employer as a programmer. I'm useful to many shop owners as a consumer etc... But nobody considers me to be "objectified".

Why have you picked on sex/sexuality in particular? Maybe this quote answers my question(?)

So it is using one's body for gratification? And this would apply equally to someone else viewing her body as a means for gratification, and also using your body(or someone else's) for profit?

Is that a fairly good definition of what "objectification of women" means, or is this only a part of it?

snatchbalance

My 2 cents(if it's worth that much):

Over the years I've had different relationships, with different women. These have ranged from 15 min. liasions with a prostitute, to long term relationships, to marrige. At one point I dated a prostitute. I thought no more or less of her because of that.

I would tend to say that in all relationships one party will objectify the other, and vice versa. I think, one of the reasons that people form bonds is to get personal needs met. In other words, at some point or another, one of the parties will be viewed as a means to an end by the other.

While this may not seem to live up to some "ideal" of how humans should interact, I think it's a pretty accurate discription of how things are.

I also think that about the best we can do is try to find some balance between our needs and those that we form bonds with. I would extend this analysis to society in general.

SB

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

Amen-Moses

If men really do see women as merely sex "objects" then why would women fake orgasms?
Why should anyone care if an "object" enjoys the experience?

(mental picture of a woman asking her dildo "Was that good for you? )

Amen-Moses

brighid

I agree with both luvluv and LadyShea on this. I think I understand the point luvluv is trying to get across and I understand LadyShea’s experience all too well. I have never been a stripper, so I cannot truly speak of the experience but I do know the general perception a majority of men and women have about women in the sex industry. Unfortunately, those perceptions only perpetuate the double standard that it is OK for men to participate in these industries as consumers (or participants) but that women are shamed by their participation as the chief object of the sexual transaction.

I agree that women need to unite, as sisters and help each other rise above the degrading stereotypes we are all subjected to every day of our lives. Too many women participate in the degradation of the “whore” stereotype by insisting women be chaste and demure, and by believing that sexually aggressive or open women are these “whores” everyone speaks of. Whores don’t really exist, as luvluv states. “Whores” only exist in the minds of others. But I do understand what he means about the participation of women in the sex industry, even though I completely understand the female perspective on this as well. If we are going to be objectified in a business suit, a pair of glasses and our hair tied in a bun, and make FAR less money then why no shake our money maker on stage, where we have total control and then men are at our mercy? Men must also relinquish this stereotype, and men must fight this stereotype in the locker room and the boardroom by OBJECTING to women being seen as sexual objects, and talked about, as we know they are talked about when we leave the room.

In academia we are taught that we must down play our sexuality to the point that we are almost androgynous so men will take our intellect seriously. We must be seen as one of the “boys” to be taken seriously. A common and ignorant phrase I have heard is “but we don’t think of you as a woman1” This is equivalent to someone telling a black man or woman, “But I don’t think of you as black.” Well, thank you VERY much! I experience this ALL the time and every intelligent woman I know that isn’t this year’s runner up for Ms. Purina Dog Chow has the same experience within academia and within corporate America. I cannot tell you how often I feel as if I am a piece of meat as I walk down the halls of my building that is overwhelmingly male. At work I do my best to downplay my body and my sexuality and I have recently realized that I have allowed myself to get “soft” because I can hide behind that less then ideal figure so I won’t be looked as a hungry wolf looks at a succulent young lamb.

Women are left in a VERY serious quandary when it comes to asserting the strength, beauty and intellect of their feminine identity. In the eyes of many, many men we are all whores and we are all “weaker vessels” that need the direction and protection of men to survive. Our feminine gender is an automatic penalization within the economic structures of our earning institutions. We are penalized on average 6 percent for every child we have if we continue working. We are far more likely to suffer the pains of poverty, hunger and violence because of our gender and because society as a whole (including men and women) see women as inferior.

We are often punished for our independence. We are bitches if we assert our rights as human beings. We aren’t allowed to be both beautiful and intelligent simultaneously. We must choose either or because our beauty distracts the male from observing or respecting our intelligence. Now, I realize that the men of this forum are an entirely different creature then the VAST majority of our American male brethren so what I am saying does not necessarily apply to our Infidel Brothers. Unfortunately, you are not the men we come up against in our daily lives. You aren’t the men who lead our companies. You aren’t the men who make the policies that govern our society and the women in here aren’t the women fueling the stereotypes and helping keep women down.

In this respect I agree with luvluv: women participate in the objectification of women, (with this caveat) not because of the sex industry – but despite of it. This is where I think luvluv and Lady Sheas experiences overlap. Women are objectified no matter what we do, what we were, where we went to school, or how high we climb the corporate ladder. We are objectified by default and try as we might, and despite the ardent strides we have made, we fight every day to hold on to the little we have and better the future for our children.

Until women stop treating us like whores and until women stop being threatened by the beauty of other women, and therefore allowing these women to be degraded we cannot elevate our status to the equal dignity of the male, on the economic and social fronts or in the bedroom.

Perhaps this anecdotal experience will help explain my position better. My husband and I subscribe to Muscle Media and the accompanying women’s magazine, Energy. We both enjoy these magazines because it is one of the few places women are not overly sexualized, but are shown as strong, healthy, vibrant and sexy women (who actually eat) without being bent over a car with a par of high heels, and a g-string, or on the cover pressing their breasts together and looking like they are about to cum. That is until their latest issue – the swimsuit issue. My husband thought he was looking a Playboy or something and he was as offended by it as I was. I cannot tell you, how as a woman, I am sooooooooo sick of women being portrayed in this manner – outside of sex magazines. I realize it sells but there are many ways to display the athletic, toned and beautiful physiques of women without the blatant sexual possess. In this way, I agree with luvluv.

How can we be seen as more then sexual objects if women continue to portray themselves as nothing more then sexual objects? This is the indignity that the average women fights against in the boardroom, classroom and walking down the street. I say keep pornography, as I don’t have a moral issue with consenting adults doing as they wish with one another. But enough with always portraying women as walking breasts and vaginas! It is in our music, in all of our consumer products and it is almost impossible to escape. I want to be seen as beautiful, sexy and intelligent without having to forfeit one just to be taken seriously, or another just to earn a decent wage. We should be able to be fully sexual beings, without being burdened by double standards. We should be able to be aggressive without being seen as a threatening bitch. We should be able to rise to the top of corporate America without having to remove our femininity OR be thought of as having SLEPT our way to the tops. This can’t happen until men AND women work together and stop tolerating the status quo.

In my company (and in so many others) the top executive females are high priced prostitutes. If you want to get the big bucks, you had better be willing to suck the “big” eh hem… dicks. If you aren’t willing to do this and if you actually have skills (outside of the bedroom) and you deny these men their due – you will be labeled as a lesbian and you will be held back and denied the pay you deserve. It is the women who use their sexuality in this manner that make it difficult for the rest of us to be taken seriously – and I think this is what luvluv is trying to get across. There is nothing wrong with women in the sex industry, but regardless of the control we have on stage, or on screen men are still in control. They are the ones who put the dollars in our g-strings and are the major consumer of porn. They dictate what kind of market this industry will be, and no matter how much we feel empowered, our audience still sees us as whores.

So, how do we CHANGE this? I don’t think there is an easy solution and I don’t think it will happen with the elimination of porn, strippers or prostitutes and I don’t support that. But I do think we can minimize the objectification of women and ALLOW them to be beautiful, smart and sexy AND be taken seriously. Until we teach our children that boys and girls are equal as HUMAN BEINGS, but different as males and females and dismantle a lot of the gender specific roles AND eliminate the misogynistic, paternalistic religious and political institutions that teach that women are inferior by design, evil by nature and whores for merely existing we will continue to fight for the equal dignity of women. Religion is really at the heart of the problem and it IS the reason, we women in America suffer still because men and women believe that women must submit, remain silent, be chaste and accept their dutiful place as mother only in complete deference to our intellect, spirit, sexual nature and the strength and beauty of our femininity.

Here are some quotes I have compiled over time in regard to this issue:
Michael W. Fox, vice-president of the Humane Society, said that, "to call an animal with whom you share your life a 'pet', is reminiscent of men's magazines where you (a figure of speech, don't take it personally) have the Pet of the Month." It is supposed that the continued use of the word "pet" to designate dogs or cats threatens to reduce their level of respect to the current status of twentieth century North American women. Now that's radical.
The McGill Red Herring
For most of history, Anonymous was a woman.
Virginia Woolf

I will far rather see the race of man extinct than that we should become less than beasts by making the noblest of God's creation, woman, the object of our lust – Gandhi

I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute." -- Rebecca West, 1913

As women we need to clearly define the full scope of womanhood. We must not allow ourselves, our or sisters to narrow that definition or allow our sisters to be called, or treated like whores. We have to work to make the worth of women equal to that of a man, while maintaining the uniqueness of our femininity. We have to fight and we have to sacrifice and we have to make those who objectify us, hear our cries and understand our intrinsic worth. Women resort to the power of their sexuality because often times we have no other means for survival. We must realize that are femininity and our sexuality are not the same, but compliments to each other and the basis for our power, not the sole source of it. As LadyShea stated – we aren’t defined by what men think of us, we are defined by how we think of ourselves. But we must redefine ourselves in the eyes of men and women.

I am not a whore because society makes me one, or because some God said all women are. I am a woman, beautiful, proud, sexual and strong. Eventually, society will accept that and we won’t need strip clubs and pornography to empower the sexuality that has been chained down, enslaved and mutilated and in many ways still is.


Brighid

bonduca

Brighid, that was beautiful.

braces_for_impact

Brighid well said! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

I am a 29 year old white male, and I think in some ways perhaps I haven't realized how badly women have it at times. Perhaps it's my own naivete' or perhaps because I was raised by a strong, single mother. I agree with some very fundamental (to my mind) things that were said in this thread. One of the most important in my opinion is that people are constantly judged and objectified in one manner or another, regardless of ethnicity or gender. I wonder seriously if these magazines and pornography and so on are to blame. I enjoy pornography and erotic art. Am I sexually objectifying that woman at the time? Perhaps I am. However, deep down inside, I know that's a living breathing person with feelings. I've known a prostitute or two in my time, I didn't treat them any differently. If a woman wants to exchange sex for money, who am I to say she shouldn't be allowed to do so, or that she is perpetrating a stereotype? People can pay for virtually any service in this country legally. Why not sexual services? Especially considering one can legally exchange these services if there is no charge? Another important fact I bring up is that there are male erotic dancers, and male prostitutes as well. I often notice that few people seem to object to this behavior, while simutaneously objecting to these professions in the female role. This I admit could be bacause when compared to women, men in these professions are relatively rare. Perhaps the best way to stop seeing women as sole objects of lust should start at home. When a child sees Daddy treating Mommy like an object, treating her disrespectfully, and treating her like a second class human being, IMO that has a much larger effect than watching a woman orgasm in a magazine or on a computer screen. If Jr. sees his male role models making lewd comments about women, and never hears comments about womens' other fine attributes, how can we expect him to have a reasonable chance to treat women as an equal?

Indeed objectification happens to all people, despite their best intentions. In men, I often notice, we are objectified by our financial status, both by other men and by women as well. Men who are less wealthy are often seen as "weaker" or less ambitious, perhaps even stupid. Ah well, it's 9:30 a.m. and I ramble on, as I haven't been to sleep for quite some time.

Final point: ladies, there are a lot of men behind you. I'm one of them. The US government is mostly men, yet the laws that have been established to safeguard women's rights have been enacted regardless. I concede that unfortuantely, it seems the majority of men seem to believe that women are inferior. But the number that do not is growing. Things are far from perfect, but they are getting better. Myself, intelligence is THE prime attribute I look for in a woman. I find a woman who has a combination of looks and brains, combined with a positive attitude energizing to be around. Perhaps the sexual part of all this is a side issue. If you want to talk about women who perpetuate a sterotype, how about women who are uneducated and unambitious? Women who are content being in a "secondary" role, and have little or no desire to better themselves? Hell, the same can be said for ignorant, sexually abusive men! They certainly perpetuate the stupid man sterotype of a guy who "only has one thing on his mind." Or, "thinks with his dick."

MadMordigan

Yes, certainly sex is a physical act but it is also an intimate one, occuring between persons. In my own definition, sex should only occur between people who want to know each other.

Why?

Grappling is also an intimately physical act. In many ways, close quarter fighting is much MORE intimate than sex. Having another human being trying to squeeze the blood from your brain, or trying to break your arm off illuminates parts of our conciousness that are otherwise inaccesable.

Yet one doesn't need to 'know' the other person to experience or enjoy these sensations. One's opponant's 'personality' is totally secondary to his/her actions. So it is with sex. You don't have to like a person, or even want to spend time with them outside of a ring to thoroughly enjoy fighting them. Neither do you have to like a person, nor want to spend time with them outside of the sack to totally enjoy fucking them.

We objectify people every single day. When my car is empty, I want a gas jockey, I couldn't care less if he's a PhD candidate in nuclear physics. If I have questions about my toilet, I want a plumber, and I couldn't care less if she is a published playwrite. If I'm horney, I want a lover, and I couldn't care less about the rest of her 'personality'.