HelenM

I wouldn't say that although he is clearly one spokeperson for one form of liberal Christianity: his own.

Just as atheists say there is no such thing as 'atheism' I'd say that liberal Christianity similarly cannot be defined by pointing at the writings and views of one man.

The Jesus Seminar has a number of members who have had books published; it would make more sense to point to that group as a relatively visible representative of contemporary liberal Christianity. But rather than having one view it's comprised of members who agree in calling themselves liberal Christians (or at least some of them do) but who disagree on the specifics of what they do and don't believe about Jesus and the Bible.

Reading Spong will give people an idea of how different 'liberal Christianity' can be from conservative Christianity but it's still just one man's version of liberal Christianity. Borg and Funk, for example, don't believe exactly the same.

Basically, liberal Christians reject that the Bible is entirely true so then they are free to come to their own conclusions about what 'really happened', who God is (if God exists), what God wants from mankind, etc etc - and so, not surprisingly, they don't all come to the identical conclusions as one another. There is freedom in liberal Christianity similar to the freedom in atheism, in that an adherent makes up his/her own mind what is true and what matters to them.

Freedom in conservative Christianity means freedom to do what God wants humans to do - which is somewhat different (of course).

Helen

Milton

Two things need to be pointed out here.

One, the Bible does never claim that any of use will live in heaven, I can't even recall a moment in which it states that we ever enter heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is not heaven itself. At least not in the sense that most Christians use it. The Kingdom is referred to as Paradise, which is "on earth". And there is the kingdom which is within. But at no point does it say that we will live in heaven, much less forever. Furthermore, when we die, many think that we immediately go to heaven. This is an assumption based on the fact that Paul states that we 'are with Christ' in our death. But they forget that this only means that we are with Him wherever we go, or that He is our intercessor. As opposed to those who die without Him. Again, there is no where in the Bible, where it will say that we go to heaven.

Second, as I know that you are referring to the after life, and not necessarily a 'heaven', I will remind you that the Bible does not describe such 'after-life' as that which you have described. In fact, the Bible states that "all things will be forgotten." In many other descriptions, it indicates that we will not even know ourselves, except God. So, there is no sex, no nothing. Whoever we are now will cease to exist then.

Rational BAC

I still say that since there is so little written about heaven or an afterlife in the Bible (almost nothing at all)----------the obvious assumption (since we are dealing with an obviously very serious gross omission here)--------is that we can make up any kind of heaven or afterlife we want, and cannot be proven to be wrong. We all are just guessing on this.

I like my guesses better than your guesses.

My guess is lots of sex, good booze, the best food, mucho entertainment of all kinds------the Life of Riley.

If you would rather have a sexless, colorless, boring heaven (or afterlife)-----that is your choice. I hope you will be happy with it.

Milton

Yea, you can create your own fantasy world. But you forget that you already claimed to believe the concept of heaven as prescribed by Christianity--indirectly, the Biblical concept of the after-life.

So, with that said, you can't have anything of what you have just claimed. Because nothing will be there. We will be completely blank. You won't even be given a choice as to what you want or not, you will be erased before you can see life again. In other words, oblivion awaits your consciousness!

emotional

In other words: things you can already get in this life here.

I'd rather have a heaven where it is possible to see and learn spiritual things. Where the veil of unknowing is lifted, and the holy realities are made clear. If heaven is anything like good life on earth is now, then there isn't much point in it.

Normal

That quote says specifically the commandments. Which of the commandments do you find especially "horrendous"?

I could point out some flaws in Russell's character, teachings, and morals as well. Would you discard that essay if I did?

Rational BAC

Spiritual things sound fine to me-------along with excellent food, booze, and sex.

Pyrrho

Be very careful about your use of the word "commandments", as the scope of the passage is the entire set of laws, as well as the teachings of the prophets:

There are so many bad laws, it is difficult to know where to begin.

How about the death penalty for working on the Sabbath:

Or the death penalty for cursing one's parents:

Or the death penalty for [male] homosexual acts:

Or the death penalty for blasphemy:

Or the death penalty for a woman not being a virgin when she marries:

(In fact, the above is worse than simply death for non-virgin women when they marry, as a real virgin may not have the "tokens of virginity", and consequently be stoned even though she is truly a virgin. This is an extremely unjust law, even if you believed a woman should be a virgin when she marries, as innocent women are with it condemned.)

There are many others that are very bad, but this last one is enough to show that whoever dreamed up such a rule doesn't understand female anatomy, and therefore cannot be "god". Since Jesus endorses that bit of cruel silliness, he obviously was pretty ignorant of female anatomy as well.



I would not recommend following Russell with the kind of religious devotion people use with Jesus. From what each has said, neither can reasonably be judged to be perfect, but Russell isn't supposed to be perfect.

Rational BAC

All those horrors in the Old Testament are only important for those Christians who believe in it as the word of God.

The Old Testament is just a piece of literature.

I believe that statement of Jesus in the New Testament was just stuck in there later on to try and bring the 2 Testaments in accord.

Christianity can be very easy to take if you throw most of the Bible out.

Scandal

I like what it says in Matt. 22:36-40

'Master, which is the greatest commandment of the Law? Jesus said to him, 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment.

The second resembles it: You must love your neighbor as yourself.

On these two commandments hang the whole law and the prophets too.'

These sound reseonable to me.