JamesBannon

This would be self-defeating as the other fishermen would simply drive him out of business (there is strength in numbers).

UncleJim

Objectivism looks at the real world this a game. The rules were set-up to honor a certain kind of play theory.

Vinnie

Yeah, in real life there is an "unknown" number of trials (versus the one time offer in the prisoner's dilemma) and there is usually a way of recording what the other individual has been doing throughout the history of the trials. So we have a track record of our partner in crime. You know this and they know this. Here--in real life--cooperation would prevail in the long run with repeated trials and a track record which leads to a system of checks and balances. 'You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' but I won't scratch your back if when mine needs scratching you stab it with a knife.

Vinnie

Vinnie

And you are the only fisherman on the planet who wants extra money and are you the only intelligent one thinking this way? Oh wait, all the fishermen may be entertaining those thoughts.

People will see you catching the fish.
You have to sell your fish somewhere.
You live in a house twice as big as the other fisherman.
You drive a car 4x theirs or live a lufestyle beyond your means.

Again, there is usually a system of checks and balances in play that will alert others. Though many people will get away with something if they can. The fact is that many people will simply behave immorally out of selfish reasons.

There is also an ethical egoism theory which will probably make the fisherman feel better to cooperate. Its why I would tip well in a city far away from home--alone as I travelled. I mean I will never see the server again, the people there, I am alone (no one to impress with the tip or be embarrsed by a lack of tipping). So why tip? I'll feel better tipping since I have an evolved moral sense based upon reciprocal altruism which makes me feel good to do something good for someone else (e.g. gift-giving or tipping).

I feel better being "genuinely altruistic" with no immediate reward in site rather than requiring a direct one at the time. Though the "reward" is ultimately that I feel better. So you tip for selfish reasons

Some also think its a fact that mutual cooperation is better for everyone in the long run. Shermer writes, "It turns out that in both computer simulations and real-world experiments, not only is being a cooperator better than being a defectory, but being a real cooperator is better than being a fake cooperator because being genuine about cooperating more readily convinces other of the genuineness of the action."

Vinnie

UncleJim

The guiding principle behind co-operation is achievement and gain it is not based on a loss determination. Co-operation is driven by considerations of the positive not by avoidance of the negative.

If there is an advantage to be gained from taking a specific action then there is reason to act; and there no reason to avoid the act. However if there is disadvantage in acting then there is reason to avoid that action but there is no gain realized.

Success in life is based on achievement not on avoidance. The fisherman's acts; when based on "no potential loss" (not being achievement oriented), will not advance or assist him in the preservation of his life; this being the purpose of acting.

UncleJim

Your comments seem to be concentrated in the negative. Why? Why do you look for the negative in-order to avoid it? The only way to advance your cause and to gain the needs of your survival is to find and acquire them. Ayn Rand proposed (and properly so) that avoiding death is not the same as living life. Living a proper life is achieved by acquiring positives not in avoiding negatives.

Vinnie

The negative what? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking. Can you please elaborate a bit?

And "avodiging death" is "living" by definition. But yes I understand that some lives are not as fulfilled as others. But I don't know what you mean by "acquiring positives". What are we acquiring? Positive what?

Vinnie

UncleJim

Your comments are based in avoiding suffering and not gaining happiness. It is possible to go about your daily activities looking only for the bad and trying to avoid it or you can look at achieving the good and then act for its gain.

Living positively is a purely a way to look at the world and what it offers and what one needs to do in-order to enjoy it: or one can look at the world and see only difficultly in it.
No it isn't! "Avoiding death" is a negative view - "Living" is a positive view.
Acquiring the knowledge necessary to live the life proper for human existence (i.e., to live happily) is what it means to acquire a positive. In means to achieve in accordance to one’s abilities and talents and to know that one is.

Belief (by its nature) results in sadness. It means to believe that ones existence is not properly spent here on earth but that ones final happiness can only be know following ones death.

Vinnie

I was discussing the logistics of the fisherman who would seemingly benefit by cheating while everyone else obeyed. I was pointing out that this loine of thinking "can be thought by everyone" and ultimately is not beneficial to our well being as a whole. Cooperation is.

How you classify this as my comments only being in the "negative" is a mystery to me. I didn't say that much to begin with. If I said something negative well I only offered a few words of text. So even if correct and there is a "concentration" of negativity I still don't get your drift. You appear to be "criticizing" a negative outlook but it is statistically significant for you to question it would still be unknown to me? Plus you claim "I look for the negative to avoid it" but I didn't start this conversation. I am responding specifically to claims based off it and throwing out a moral analogy that seems fitting with the logistics of the PD.

And I was showing why "cheating" overall is not a positive behavior for the group. Even "cheating" when you think you can get away with it is generally "bad". Though more people will cheat when they think they can get away.

Not to mention that a great case can be made that """avoiding suffering""" is """gaining happiness""" since I am quite happy where and when I was born and that I was born. Having the ability to learn and experience the ups and downs of life is living. Just being here, the astronomical probablities against my existence and a quadrillion historical contingencies that could have prevented my birth---well I find myself blessed. Especially to be born in an age of science where life is generally far easier, much longer and diversified with far more perks than it has been for any primates in the last million years. Cooperating with my neighbors helps.

But I'm a hedonist so if you think I don't desire happiness.....

Vinnie

"""""""Belief (by its nature) results in sadness.""""""""

Belief results in sadness, happiness of nothingness. It depends on what you believe, how much you know and what you make of it.

After-life mentality is a waste of life IMO. Some people spend (waste IMO) their whole life trying to prepare for the next. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

Vinnie