Freethought & Rationalism Archive

winstonjen · 09-07-2003, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Haylow
It's better to do it slowly, just to make sure you have selected the right lie to replace it with

Evidence is not a lie.
Facts are not lies.
If we can replace all the lies with facts all at once, what's the problem?

demoninho · 09-07-2003, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
Evidence is not a lie.
Facts are not lies.
If we can replace all the lies with facts all at once, what's the problem?

A layman can show and interpret the evidence. A layman apologetic could quite easily refute most of them and it takes almost an expert to refute layman apologetics. AiG offers some pretty impressive looking scientific stuff and only some one knowledgeable with a lot of time to spare could refute.

Try reading this link memes are on the border of science /pseudoscience themselves but it gives a good inside into the thinking and apologetics processes of a fundie.

Haylow · 09-07-2003, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
Evidence is not a lie.
Facts are not lies.
If we can replace all the lies with facts all at once, what's the problem?

What ever you take comfort out of

Proctors_Gambit · 09-07-2003, 07:05 AM

As an ex-theist I can say...

Nothing anyone else would say had a chance to break through the barriers I put up myself.

If I could no answer them I'd simply assume there was an answer and I was not aware of it.

Surely there must be an answer if christianity has survived so long, god knows best, I'll find out all the answers in heaven etc.

And oftimes I would leave it there.

The trick is to make them desire to find answers to your questions. That's how it worked for me.
The answers I found never quite satisfied me and only made me search further until I searched my way right the hell out of the trap of christianity.

The hardest thing is to present a christian with a quesiton they can't answer and then get them to want to find the answers.
Most will take the stance that,"God knows best" and leave it there.

-Gambit

diana · 09-07-2003, 07:10 AM

Maybe I'm just not doing it right, but I've found that people who have all their assumptions attacked at once will basically shrug, say something like, "You just have your heart closed to the truth, so you won't understand," and then go pray for me or something.

There are simple answers to all of the thought-provoking questions listed so far (indeed, all the thought-provoking questions I can think of have simple answers). Those answers are invariably circular and inconsistent with other parts of the person's belief, but those who use them generally don't even know what "circular" means or why it's poor reasoning. So, pointing out the circularity of the answers you get rarely aids communication.

Gothic_J,

I like your checklist. I think it would work for some people, at least to plant that seed. I'd like to share a smidgeon of a conversation I have ongoing with a colleague here:

ME: Let's just say you walk out of your house one day and there's a bush burning on your front lawn. It isn't being consumed by the flames. You walk over to check it out, of course. As you get near it, it speaks to you and says, "Shawn, take your shoes off, because you're standing on holy ground." You do it. It then says, "You've been worshipping the wrong god, Shawn. I'm the only true god. My name is Kali. Your Jesus Christ is a myth. If you want everlasting life, you'll have to follow me." What would you do?

HIM: I'd walk away.

ME: You mean to tell me that the exact same miracle that you believe introduced a new god to Moses, which he believed and followed, would not work to basically convince you of the same thing?

HIM: No.

ME (baffled): Why?

HIM: Because Jesus is my savior. It says so in the Bible and I believe the Bible is infallible.

ME: So if I were to point out instances of the Bible being fallible, you'd tell me I misunderstand them or something, because the Bible can't be fallible. Is that correct?

HIM: Yes.

ME: You believe the Bible is infallible and would discard any evidence to the contrary.

HIM: Yes.

ME: Why?

HIM: Because that's the basis for my belief.

ME: OK. I'm going for a beer now.

d

demoninho · 09-07-2003, 07:11 AM

Proctors_Gambit:

So which questions where the ones that made you want to look?

sophie · 09-07-2003, 07:35 AM

I find it easier to seperate the GOD belief from the religious dogma. To think clearly about a super intelligence and try to seperate this true intelligence from the power-struck human using religion towards their own ends.

One step at a time can cause a lot less frustration on all sides.

Rational BAC · 09-07-2003, 07:41 AM

Sounds too much like wanting to start a war here. I think live and let live is the best.

There are way too many proseletyzing Christians. We don't need proseletyzing atheists.

Proctors_Gambit · 09-07-2003, 08:05 AM

demoninho, for me it was not the actual questions themselves.

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, and something that most atheists will notice when they talk to Christians.

No "Stumper" question, or logical progression from an atheist will do anything to shake the faith of a strong Christian unless they open themselves up to be challenged.

As this means leaving a comfort zone few Christians will get to that point.

For me it was simple things, One example was the Christian concept of 2 places to spend eternity... heaven or hell.

Heaven apparently could only be reached by faith in Christ & his resurrection.

Thus I saw 2 scenarios...

1. Infants & the unborn, the mentally incapable, and "savages" who will never hear of Jesus will all go straight to hell at death

or

2. They get to heaven but get there by some loophole not requiring them to accept Jesus.

The first option was unthinkable, the second negated the whole "no-one gets to the father accept through me" premise.

So instead of just ignoring it away I tried to find an answer that I could accept.
By searching I opened up more and more cans of worms that I could not explain, I tried to get help from my Christian friends who treated me with suspicion at my "strange questions" and then simply clammed up with a blanket "god knows best" reply.

The few answers I did get were unsatisfactory, and lead me to research online.

I found atheist resources, plus non-christian forums like Fade to Black and then IIDB and found the first answer that made sense.
It was a lie, it made no sense because it was false.
I had been a victim, many of my loved ones still were and to try and tell them that would only achieve their condemnation.

The realisation came from personal discovery, not from a good question from a smart atheist.

However, a top resource that has been of great use for me is the "Questioning Theistic Beliefs" list on WinAce's site...
Right Here!

Check that out for some great logical approaches to big issues like: the power of prayer, the concept of hell, omnipotence, a designed world, and lots more.

-Gambit

crisisGirl · 09-07-2003, 02:42 PM

just one reminder of the pitfalls of trying to "convert" xtians:

christians tend to have that nasty delusion of persecution. although it is easy to defeat most of them logically, they immediately perceive your attempts at conversion as a direct attack. anything you say thereafter, therefore, will be interpreted as coming out of the mouth of satan, and the xtian must ignore it, regardless of its validity.

there's also an ethical question here. given how much fundy proselytizing gets on our nerves, do we really want to do the same thing to them? a case can be made for both "yes" and "no" answers.

personally, when fundies preach to me, i like using their own religion to shut them up. it goes like this:

fundy: blah blah blah yackety schmackety bible yada yada yada
cG: so you believe the bible, no?
fundy: [insert affirmative response] blah blah, yak yak yak
cG: does the bible say, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"
fundy: [insert affirmative response] blah blah, yak yak yak
cG: so what does that verse mean?
fundy: treat others as you would like to be treated?
cG: so do you want other ppl shoving their religion down your throat?
fundy: (seethe - exit, stage left)

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09-07-2003, 07:05 AM	#14
Proctors_Gambit Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 372	As an ex-theist I can say... Nothing anyone else would say had a chance to break through the barriers I put up myself. If I could no answer them I'd simply assume there was an answer and I was not aware of it. Surely there must be an answer if christianity has survived so long, god knows best, I'll find out all the answers in heaven etc. And oftimes I would leave it there. The trick is to make them desire to find answers to your questions. That's how it worked for me. The answers I found never quite satisfied me and only made me search further until I searched my way right the hell out of the trap of christianity. The hardest thing is to present a christian with a quesiton they can't answer and then get them to want to find the answers. Most will take the stance that,"God knows best" and leave it there. -Gambit

09-07-2003, 07:10 AM	#15
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Maybe I'm just not doing it right, but I've found that people who have all their assumptions attacked at once will basically shrug, say something like, "You just have your heart closed to the truth, so you won't understand," and then go pray for me or something. There are simple answers to all of the thought-provoking questions listed so far (indeed, all the thought-provoking questions I can think of have simple answers). Those answers are invariably circular and inconsistent with other parts of the person's belief, but those who use them generally don't even know what "circular" means or why it's poor reasoning. So, pointing out the circularity of the answers you get rarely aids communication. Gothic_J, I like your checklist. I think it would work for some people, at least to plant that seed. I'd like to share a smidgeon of a conversation I have ongoing with a colleague here: ME: Let's just say you walk out of your house one day and there's a bush burning on your front lawn. It isn't being consumed by the flames. You walk over to check it out, of course. As you get near it, it speaks to you and says, "Shawn, take your shoes off, because you're standing on holy ground." You do it. It then says, "You've been worshipping the wrong god, Shawn. I'm the only true god. My name is Kali. Your Jesus Christ is a myth. If you want everlasting life, you'll have to follow me." What would you do? HIM: I'd walk away. ME: You mean to tell me that the exact same miracle that you believe introduced a new god to Moses, which he believed and followed, would not work to basically convince you of the same thing? HIM: No. ME (baffled): Why? HIM: Because Jesus is my savior. It says so in the Bible and I believe the Bible is infallible. ME: So if I were to point out instances of the Bible being fallible, you'd tell me I misunderstand them or something, because the Bible can't be fallible. Is that correct? HIM: Yes. ME: You believe the Bible is infallible and would discard any evidence to the contrary. HIM: Yes. ME: Why? HIM: Because that's the basis for my belief. ME: OK. I'm going for a beer now. d

09-07-2003, 07:11 AM	#16
demoninho Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 927	Proctors_Gambit: So which questions where the ones that made you want to look?

09-07-2003, 07:35 AM	#17
sophie Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: On the road to extinction. . . Posts: 1,485	I find it easier to seperate the GOD belief from the religious dogma. To think clearly about a super intelligence and try to seperate this true intelligence from the power-struck human using religion towards their own ends. One step at a time can cause a lot less frustration on all sides.

09-07-2003, 07:41 AM	#18
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Sounds too much like wanting to start a war here. I think live and let live is the best. There are way too many proseletyzing Christians. We don't need proseletyzing atheists.

09-07-2003, 08:05 AM	#19
Proctors_Gambit Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 372	demoninho, for me it was not the actual questions themselves. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, and something that most atheists will notice when they talk to Christians. No "Stumper" question, or logical progression from an atheist will do anything to shake the faith of a strong Christian unless they open themselves up to be challenged. As this means leaving a comfort zone few Christians will get to that point. For me it was simple things, One example was the Christian concept of 2 places to spend eternity... heaven or hell. Heaven apparently could only be reached by faith in Christ & his resurrection. Thus I saw 2 scenarios... 1. Infants & the unborn, the mentally incapable, and "savages" who will never hear of Jesus will all go straight to hell at death or 2. They get to heaven but get there by some loophole not requiring them to accept Jesus. The first option was unthinkable, the second negated the whole "no-one gets to the father accept through me" premise. So instead of just ignoring it away I tried to find an answer that I could accept. By searching I opened up more and more cans of worms that I could not explain, I tried to get help from my Christian friends who treated me with suspicion at my "strange questions" and then simply clammed up with a blanket "god knows best" reply. The few answers I did get were unsatisfactory, and lead me to research online. I found atheist resources, plus non-christian forums like Fade to Black and then IIDB and found the first answer that made sense. It was a lie, it made no sense because it was false. I had been a victim, many of my loved ones still were and to try and tell them that would only achieve their condemnation. The realisation came from personal discovery, not from a good question from a smart atheist. However, a top resource that has been of great use for me is the "Questioning Theistic Beliefs" list on WinAce's site... Right Here! Check that out for some great logical approaches to big issues like: the power of prayer, the concept of hell, omnipotence, a designed world, and lots more. -Gambit

09-07-2003, 02:42 PM	#20
crisisGirl Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Atlanta JAWjuh Posts: 51	just one reminder of the pitfalls of trying to "convert" xtians: christians tend to have that nasty delusion of persecution. although it is easy to defeat most of them logically, they immediately perceive your attempts at conversion as a direct attack. anything you say thereafter, therefore, will be interpreted as coming out of the mouth of satan, and the xtian must ignore it, regardless of its validity. there's also an ethical question here. given how much fundy proselytizing gets on our nerves, do we really want to do the same thing to them? a case can be made for both "yes" and "no" answers. personally, when fundies preach to me, i like using their own religion to shut them up. it goes like this: fundy: blah blah blah yackety schmackety bible yada yada yada cG: so you believe the bible, no? fundy: [insert affirmative response] blah blah, yak yak yak cG: does the bible say, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you?" fundy: [insert affirmative response] blah blah, yak yak yak cG: so what does that verse mean? fundy: treat others as you would like to be treated? cG: so do you want other ppl shoving their religion down your throat? fundy: (seethe - exit, stage left)

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