Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 10-28-2002, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Horia Plugaru:
Greetings Joel,

I was wondering:

1. Why don't you kill yourself?

I think this is intended as a theological question i.e. if heaven is so great wouldn't it make sense to hasten your journey there?

However, it is ambiguous and could be understood as an insult, i.e. "Why don't you do us a favor and rid us of your presence?" Because of that I suggest that you phrase the question differently in future so it is clear that it's meant as a theological question rather than a personal insult.

Helen

Horia Plugaru · 10-28-2002, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM:


I think this is intended as a theological question i.e. if heaven is so great wouldn't it make sense to hasten your journey there?

However, it is ambiguous and could be understood as an insult, i.e. "Why don't you do us a favor and rid us of your presence?" Because of that I suggest that you phrase the question differently in future so it is clear that it's meant as a theological question rather than a personal insult.

Helen

You are absolutely correct. I did provide a link which presents in detail what was meant by my question but yes, you do have a point.

Sorry!

Horia.

Starboy · 10-28-2002, 08:55 AM

HoosierGuy28 (AKA Joel):

The details are not important. People have faked their deaths before. It is more reasonable to assume this is another case of Christian deception then to assume supernatural causes. As for the Romans wishing to expose the Christians as frauds, at the time Christians did not exist. As far as the Romans were concerned this was just another case of a pain in the ass Jew in a long line of pain in the ass Jews, and politically they dealt with it. As for anything supernatural occurring, the lack of any Roman documents from that time is supporting evidence that nothing supernatural took place.

A natural explanation no matter how far fetched is infinitely more reasonable then a supernatural explanation. The issue is simple, if you are a reasonable person why would you choose a supernatural explanation over a natural one?

As for my second and third question:

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
 If you do accept the first explanation, then do you accept all supernatural explanations of events both past and present? If not then why not?

Care to address them?

Starboy

DigitalDruid · 10-28-2002, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl:

Numerology, bible codes (numerology?), you've got to be kidding right?

It would be interesting to see how Joel counters one of his own ilk - Hank Hannegraf - the "Bible Answer Man" of coast-to-coast radio and the chief of Christian Research Instittute.

Extract from Hank's article ( <a href="http://www.equip.org/free/DE269.htm" target="_blank">http://www.equip.org/free/DE269.htm</a> ):

Quote:

The core problem with ELS � as with all numerics � is that its "discoveries" are far too arbitrary to be considered scientific. The following sentence will provide a clear example of the application of ELS�s flawed methodology:

"Paul Crouch was the cryptic treachery encoder."

A computer, searching the above sentence, discovers that the twelfth letter from the right is "c." Twelve, of course, is four times three, and three is the number of the Trinity.

Hooray, we just "proved" trinity from that one single sentence! Now imagine how much we can "prove" if we apply the method to the entire text of the Bible.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalDruid ]

Shadowy Man · 10-28-2002, 10:39 AM

As an aside: a good page for a discussion of the bible codes is <a href="http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html" target="_blank">here</a>.

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 10-28-2002, 02:56 PM

Hey Joel. I just wanted to comment on a couple of things from your last post. If you get the time to reply then great, but I see that you already have quite a bit to worry about.

Quote:

How did the accomplices move the two-ton stone without the guards noticing?

If the guards were aware and just overtaken, then they would've been able to identify whoever it was who stole the body, so where are the records of this, who was it that stole the body, and where are the records of execution for these criminals?

Why would someone intentionally steal the body? They would've had to have had a death wish.

Where are the records that people actually stole the body? Refer to Matthew 27:57-61, Mark 15:42-47, Luke 23:50-56, and John 19:38-42. Basically, you have to take Joseph of Arimathea's word that he took Jesus to the tomb. My Bible doesn't mention anything about guards escorting Joseph to the tomb. It just says Joseph took the body and supposedly brought it to the tomb wrapped in linens. It's entirely possible that he took Jesus elsewhere and brought empty linens to the tomb so that it looked like he was carrying a body to the tomb when he wasn't.

What are your thoughts about this?

-Nick

Starboy · 10-29-2002, 05:33 AM

Wafer (AKA Nick):

Thanks for the additional comments. It just confirms my contention that Christians don't consider the possibility that there are numerous explanations of how the events could have occurred naturally without using anything supernatural. It is Joel's job to convince me that his reasons for accepting supernatural explanations when there are a numerous natural explanations is rational.

It would be nice if there were Christians that could admit that the foundation of Christianity is not rational.

Starboy

Kosh · 10-29-2002, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by I ate Pascals Wafer:
[QB

Where are the records that people actually stole the body? Refer to Matthew 27:57-61, Mark 15:42-47, Luke 23:50-56, and John 19:38-42. Basically, you have to take Joseph of Arimathea's word that he took Jesus to the tomb. My Bible doesn't mention anything about guards escorting Joseph to the tomb. It just says Joseph took the body and supposedly brought it to the tomb wrapped in linens. It's entirely possible that he took Jesus elsewhere and brought empty linens to the tomb so that it looked like he was carrying a body to the tomb when he wasn't.

What are your thoughts about this?

-Nick[/QB]

Good question Nick! Sort of a magicians slight of hand approach. And the guards were the unwitting co-conspirators!

DigitalDruid · 10-31-2002, 11:37 AM

I hope HoosierGuy(Joel) has not forgotten us.
Or may be he is now thinking of opening an "Ask an atheist" thread?

sakrilege · 10-31-2002, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HoosierGuy28:
... I probably won't be back on here until Tuesday or Wednesday.

Hmmm, he is a little late but we should probably wait a few more days.

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10-28-2002, 10:39 AM	#265
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	As an aside: a good page for a discussion of the bible codes is <a href="http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html" target="_blank">here</a>.

10-29-2002, 05:33 AM	#267
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Wafer (AKA Nick): Thanks for the additional comments. It just confirms my contention that Christians don't consider the possibility that there are numerous explanations of how the events could have occurred naturally without using anything supernatural. It is Joel's job to convince me that his reasons for accepting supernatural explanations when there are a numerous natural explanations is rational. It would be nice if there were Christians that could admit that the foundation of Christianity is not rational. Starboy

10-31-2002, 11:37 AM	#269
DigitalDruid Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 712	I hope HoosierGuy(Joel) has not forgotten us. Or may be he is now thinking of opening an "Ask an atheist" thread?

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