Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Christian · 03-22-2003, 09:00 PM

Worldling,

If believing that I have found the real thing is "egotistic," then that is a claim I will have to deal with.

If it helps I don't think I'm smarter or more insightful than anyone else, just more fortunate. But I freely admit that I have found the real thing.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-22-2003, 09:07 PM

Gregg,

Yes. Although what I am describing is not limited to "emotional experiences."

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-22-2003, 09:11 PM

lpetrich,

Arguments from silence have a purpose. They are better than nothing. My point is that I'm suprised by how many athiest arguments fall into that category, and by how convincing athiests seem to find that type of argument.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-22-2003, 09:14 PM

BFI,

Quote:

If evidence were at hand then faith would not be required.

Please define "faith" and "evidence" as you are using them.

Thanks.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-22-2003, 09:16 PM

Rhea,

Quote:

I believe it is not in dispute that the Bible specifically tells you to NOT question it and to NOT try to use wisdom and to NOT be intellectual. It calls these things sinful, I believe.

I submit that you are misinterpreting scripture if you think it says that. What passages were you refering to?

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian · 03-22-2003, 09:25 PM

Silent Dave,

Quote:

To put it bluntly, it is you who are speculating on what he knows almost nothing about. Having been a Christian for many years, what I'm talking about is not even remotely at the level of mere speculation. I know exactly what you think and feel with regard to God. And I stand by what I said. If your problem is that my use of the word "emotional" does not correspond with common usage, then replace it with "naturalistic."

Unless you have done a Vulcan mind meld when I wasn�t looking, your claim to know exactly what I think and feel with regard to God is unfounded.

Quote:

Since your question about ruling out supernaturalistic causes a priori has been taken care of elsewhere, I have a question for you: what basis do you have for a priori ruling out naturalistic explanations for your theistic experiences?

I do not.

Quote:

And if you don't rule them out, then why do you violate Occam's Razor by maintaining your theistic belief?

I have not found any naturalistic theory that satisfactorily explains the evidence or my personal experiences.

Respectfully,

Christian

worldling · 03-23-2003, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian
Worldling,

If believing that I have found the real thing is "egotistic," then that is a claim I will have to deal with.

So, you do not think egotism is a character flaw?

Quote:

If it helps I don't think I'm smarter or more insightful than anyone else, just more fortunate. But I freely admit that I have found the real thing.

So says the Muslim, the Raelian, the Scientologist, the Mormon, the Moonie, the Breatharian etc etc.

And, amazingly, you know this, yet you still think you are different!

Christian · 03-23-2003, 04:15 AM

Worldling,

Pride (considering yourself better than or superior to others) is certainly a character flaw.

But seeking out and clinging to truth is a virtue. Truth is exclusive, or it's not actually truth. If the exclusivity of truth makes me vulnerable to the accusation of egotism, then that is a price I'm willing to pay. The alternative is to claim that truth is unknowable, or the extremely counterintuitive claim that there is no such thing as truth. Everything about my experience tells me otherwise. I stumbled into the truth, clumsily and through no fault of my own. But since I find that such a thing has happened, I'll happily point to it and declare it to be actually true.

Respectfully,

Christian

Magus55 · 03-23-2003, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JTVrocher
Magus, if he is alive where is he? Even the most cursory reading of the NT proves he expected to return immediately. The church in Jerusalem expected his return within their life time. Paul expected it in his life time. Where is he? The problem is not that the tomb contained no body. The problem is that 2000 years after your God rose from the grave he is still missing. The problem is that your God lied to his followers. The problem is that the one person who could have made a difference never came back. The problem is that science and technology have taken hundreds and thousands of years to do what your God could have done with only a word. The problem is that death is here and Jesus isn't. Famine is here and Jesus isn't. War is here and Jesus isn't. Disease is here and Jesus isn't. So all it would take is to find the body for you to become apostate. I give you a greater challenge. Show the body. Let us see Jesus. Bring him back to life if he if has come back from death. Your God is a liar and a fraud untill he stands before humanity once again.

JT

No, Jesus NEVER said he would return immediately, atheists just use the same tired verse in scripture and immediately assume it means his second coming. Here is where Jesus returns, its not until Revelation!

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Mat 16:28, which atheists love to use by assuming its a contradiction and false prophecy isn't Jesus' second coming, its His transfiguration.

worldling · 03-23-2003, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian
Worldling,

Pride (considering yourself better than or superior to others) is certainly a character flaw.

But seeking out and clinging to truth is a virtue. Truth is exclusive, or it's not actually truth. If the exclusivity of truth makes me vulnerable to the accusation of egotism, then that is a price I'm willing to pay. The alternative is to claim that truth is unknowable, or the extremely counterintuitive claim that there is no such thing as truth.

No, the alternative is to accept that what you believe is not actually true.
And "clinging" to what you believe to be true - especially in the face of contradictory evidence - is not a virtue. Unless you would call dumb obstinacy a virtue.

Quote:

Everything about my experience tells me otherwise. I stumbled into the truth, clumsily and through no fault of my own. But since I find that such a thing has happened, I'll happily point to it and declare it to be actually true.

Respectfully,

Christian

So says the Muslim, the Raelian, the Scientologist, the Mormon, the Moonie, the Breatharian etc etc.

And, amazingly, you know this, yet you still think you are different!

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03-22-2003, 09:00 PM	#61
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	Worldling, If believing that I have found the real thing is "egotistic," then that is a claim I will have to deal with. If it helps I don't think I'm smarter or more insightful than anyone else, just more fortunate. But I freely admit that I have found the real thing. Respectfully, Christian

03-22-2003, 09:07 PM	#62
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	Gregg, Yes. Although what I am describing is not limited to "emotional experiences." Respectfully, Christian

03-22-2003, 09:11 PM	#63
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	lpetrich, Arguments from silence have a purpose. They are better than nothing. My point is that I'm suprised by how many athiest arguments fall into that category, and by how convincing athiests seem to find that type of argument. Respectfully, Christian

03-23-2003, 04:15 AM	#68
Christian Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iraq Posts: 313	Worldling, Pride (considering yourself better than or superior to others) is certainly a character flaw. But seeking out and clinging to truth is a virtue. Truth is exclusive, or it's not actually truth. If the exclusivity of truth makes me vulnerable to the accusation of egotism, then that is a price I'm willing to pay. The alternative is to claim that truth is unknowable, or the extremely counterintuitive claim that there is no such thing as truth. Everything about my experience tells me otherwise. I stumbled into the truth, clumsily and through no fault of my own. But since I find that such a thing has happened, I'll happily point to it and declare it to be actually true. Respectfully, Christian

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