Ion

Free Will, Gemma?

No kidding...

Samhain

Ok. If free will exists then we have absolute freedom for any action, correct? Good.

Or else we are to suffer damnation and hellfire for all of eternity. This defeats the whole "free-will from God" argument. This does not demonstrate any type of argument for free-will. Free-will for this argument is an allowance of either choice without strings attached. Such an argument is ridiculous. God gives man the ability to reason, tools of logic, tools of science, evidence which essentially disproves the existence of god or the ability to have any kind of relationship with that god. This god would expect us to hold to what humans know as truth in every other situation except the situation concerned with the idea of this god being a creator. This argument suffers from 2 major logical contradictions as I see it. One has to do with the idea of nihilism. If the JC god exists as it is portrayed then all of human reason is compromised. The second has to do with the true idea of free-will. This god gives more compelling evidence against its own existence than for it, and then tells us we burn in hell if we choose to reject it. What kind of choice is that? This argument is nonsense.

If we are to truly have free-will god can have no such power. If we are to understand the Bible objectively God does not love us, but despises us.

That's the whole point. By your standards of "God" there really is no choice. The JC god paradox extends further than just the idea of free-will. It also extends to the ideas of free-will and "God's" omni-properties and to other areas which do not pertain to this conversation at this point. You might do well to read some of the debates around here so we don't always have to repeat everything which we've said thousands of times before. This argument is not original and has been debunked by myself and others far more knowledgeable than I, and all of us come to the same conclusion. Common concepts of god cannot be true if free-will exists. One must be compromised in the process.

Dr. Retard

Gemma wrote:
I agree that it would be good for God to leave it up to us whether to serve him (although I don't think love is a matter of choice; it just happens to you). But that's not really the issue here. The issue is whether God should tolerate all the disbelief in his existence. It seems to me that the good thing to do would be to reveal his existence (his wisdom, his plan for humanity, etc.) to we humans. Then we would probably be a lot better off. As things stand, though, if God really does exist, we're terribly benighted.

sidewinder

Wrong answer. According to your religion, your god does send people to hell simply for not believing in Jesus. Doesn't matter if you were the most decent and moral person on the planet. You could be much more decent and moral than Christians even but it doesn't matter because you didn't believe. If you don't believe, then your god sends you to hell. If you believe this is good justice, then you're warped. I'm sick of the "you send yourself to hell" argument by Christians. It's just another attempt to downplay the abhorrent dogma of hell. Let's get it straight. A person qualifies for hell simply by not believing in Jesus. Nothing else in their life matters except believing in Jesus, which essentially entails believing in an ancient book full of errors and contradictions. We don't have the option of where we spend eternity according to your religion, regardless of what you state or what C.S. Lewis said. The dogma of hell is an orthodox, historical dogma of Christianity.

Gemma Therese

How is this different from where I'm at now?

God is present on Earth, whether you acknowledge Him or not.

In God's Love,

Gemma Therese

Gemma Therese

<<So, do you think I could somehow just "decide" to believe in God again?>>

You have my prayers.

In God's Love

Gemma Therese

Gemma Therese

Samhain:

Thomas Merton said, "God cannot be understood execpt by Himself."

Why do you presume to understand God?

In His love,

Gemma Therese

Gemma Therese

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sidewinder:

<<<Wrong answer. According to your religion, your god does send people to hell simply for not believing in Jesus. Doesn't matter if you were the most decent and moral person on the planet. You could be much more decent and moral than Christians even but it doesn't matter because you didn't believe. If you don't believe, then your god sends you to hell. If you believe this is good justice, then you're warped. I'm sick of the "you send yourself to hell" argument by Christians. It's just another attempt to downplay the abhorrent dogma of hell. Let's get it straight. A person qualifies for hell simply by not believing in Jesus. Nothing else in their life matters except believing in Jesus, which essentially entails believing in an ancient book full of errors and contradictions. We don't have the option of where we spend eternity according to your religion, regardless of what you state or what C.S. Lewis said. The dogma of hell is an orthodox, historical dogma of Christianity.>>>>>>

I am a Roman Catholic, and very interested in our dogma that says, "Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus goes to hell."

How about giving me some documentation from the CCC?

in God's Love,

Gemma Therese

sighhswolf

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
<strong>Dear Automaton,

Your wrote,

"Obviously [God did not create us to know Him], becuase He created brains with the logical capacity to reach the conclusion that He does not exist. If God made us to know Him, then there would not be unbelievers. There are unbelievers. Therefore, God did not make us to know Him (or does not exist)."

I respond:

Ultimately, the only absolute freedom we have resides in our free will. And that freedom was given to us by our Creator, essentially, so that we might freely choose to love and serve Him. All other creatures serve Him out of exigency; by their very being and existence they witness to His power and His love, or reflect His glory and beauty in some way. Only to man has He given the power of freely choosing to love and serve Him. He has given us intellect and free will -- and this is the hallmark of man.

Only man can freely choose not to serve his Creator.

You see, Automaton, God loved us enough to give us the option of believing. Love and service when we do not have a choice is not genuine love and service.

In God's Love,

Gemma Therese</strong>

Gemma,

I have always thought that the free will concept
is irrational.
As someone else has already pointed out given
a choice to worship or suffer punishment/retribution is not free will.
The reward and punishment system does not support
the free will concept.
If the system was setup to accomodate several
different paths, or different priorities based on the level of commitment that you display during your lifetime, then the "free will" concept would be rational.

But to simply lay out "do what I want or suffer", is no choice at all.

The other part of this is the issue of the attributes of this god as the CE states them, some 22 attributes including omnipotance and omniscience.
To preach the "omni's" would nullify any concept of free will, if this god (as most christians espouse) has already decided who goes to the heavenly afterlife and who doesnt "predestination" how can there be free will?

If the whole issue is already decided by this god of the "omni's" then there is deception going on on a grand scale.
And it would not matter one tiny bit whether you live your live as a christian or not.

I dont buy the CE's attributes of god, because it is unreasonable to list 21 attributes.....
characteristics... of this god and in the same list include "Inconceivability".
That would qualify the catholics for membership
in the "religious agnosticism" club.
Wolf

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

sidewinder

[quote]Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
<strong>Well Gemma, I had the thought that you might be RC because I'm familiar with the RC teaching on eternal salvation as determined by Vatican II. However, up until Vatican II, the RC church held that all non-Catholics (Christians) are hell bound. In fact, there are many Catholic groups out there now who do not accept the teachings of Vatican II because they believe Vatican II has compromised too much with the secular world and religious pluralism. What do you think about your "separated brethren" who claim that the correct Christian teaching is that all non-Christians are hell bound?