Llyricist

Okay so let's go with YOUR defintion and apply it back to the question in the OP. How can an all loving god allow one group of people who have chosen good to harm and kill another group of people that have chosen good? Wouldn't this be in fact Evil and a contradiction? Assuming human sufferuing is always a result of turning away from god?

Both groups have consciously chosen their understanding of God's way. Whether they have the "right" idea of what God's way is, is irrelevent to YOUR definition of good and free will.

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Rick..... I do not mean to break in.... if you feel I do please just ignore my post or place it on the back burner. I am curious as to what you define as evil. The person you are with your capacity to reason and apply your conscience to lead your choices will define evil according to your ability to reason. You have somehow to apply your own ethical values. I would assume that for most of us, we define evil as what results in harming others with a specific intent to harm.

That intent choice implies a level of premeditation and elaboration to pursue a personal agenda. I think this is where the free will limit comes in.....non religious individuals will equaly be directed by human laws and common ethical values to not harm others with harmful intent. But they still can choose to commit evil. Those ethical values and laws may not suffice to direct the human mind away from harmful intent choices ( obviously as demonstrated by the history of mankind). The same principle applies to religious individuals. They can still choose to deviate from a divine direction.

The will to intend to commit an act which results in harming others remains a personal choice. It is not directly produced by the system who was set in place to prevent that INTENT ( whether it be by laws and ethics or by divine direction).

Sufferings.... well as a physician you deal with it each day. I can understand how you would expect an omnipotent god to have created our bodies so that they may never experience the misery you now try to remedy to by your human means. It is as if you are picking up the pieces of that god.... despite of my faith,I face a similar dilemna at times and ask my God " why are you allowing that misery? "And the misery I encounter is also a low income patient who looses the benefit of coverage for his meds without which his sufferings will get worse.....or the senior sent to a creepy nursing home because the county cannot cover home care anylonger. I comment on that just to tell you that I am oblivious to the feeling of " something is very wrong with the entire system whether it be social or divine".

We can commensurate for the rest of our lives whether or not God should have demonstrated his omnipotence by making his creation unable to commit evil with intent to do so. Or by preventing natural catastrophes. Giving us super immune systems. Not allowing the existence of pathogene organisms. Making us resistant to cold, heat, fire, water ......you name it. Even possibly making us immortal. Perfection in the system would be what humans can expect from an omnipotent and good god.
But there we are .... doing damage control as millions others do thru their profession or mission or vocation however they wish to define their contribution. We are challenged to fix it. And in that process, mankind has shown its potential to use its intent to do good. Some by humanitarian secular inspiration... others by divine inspiration.
Somehow mankind is at its best when challenged to fix failures.
Where am I leading to? Where would be our potential to do so if we were unable to produce evil or totaly protected from any natural harm? our potential.... how would we use it?

long winded fool

It sounds like you've won, Radorth. Llyricist seems to be saying that, though God may not be self-contradictory, there's still no reason to assume He exists. He/she is now asking you to prove that God exists, rather than falsely assuming that (s)he can prove God doesn't exist with contradictions. Since all you're doing is proving that God is not inherently self-contradictory and Llyricist can't refute this, (s)he must concede your point if he or she is arguing honestly.

Llyricist

Ahhh yes, the old "move the goal posts right on off the field of coherence and reality and declare victory" gambit LOL

long winded fool

He can't allow it. At least one group must have chosen evil/not good. Good cannot contradict itself. The "right" idea of what God's way is is "Good." If two people who think they have chosen good disagree, then one or both of them are wrong and have not actually chosen "Good."

Llyricist

Besides I already said that the only valid reason to obey a NON omnimax god would be the result of blackmail. PARTICULARY if the OT is a true representation.

Llyricist

Amazing you don't see how circular this is. This is PURE presupp. And demonstrates a rather cruel God that would allow people to consciously and whole heartedly choose his way, but still be wrong! And this Happens ALL THE TIME.

long winded fool

:boohoo: Good thing God is omnimax then, huh. And they clearly aren't whole heartedly choosing His way. "How can God let me be wrong if He loves me?!"

How does it feel to have your intellectual butt kicked by theistic arguments?

Llyricist

I surely wouldn't know, because it hasn't happened.

I suppose you think this makes some kind of sense.

scombrid

Radorth said: What I said was, he won't do it if it makes no difference in people's character.

A statement with which I assume you agree. God will act if it will change somebody's character. I see no group more ready to follow god totally willfully than fundamentalist muslims and christians (Fundamentalist anything for that matter.) Yet this god continues to allow one of them to be wrong even though it is their WILL to do his every bidding. One of them (we don't know which) is not doing his bidding therefore he is subverting their will by not showing them the way in spite of their fervent belief. They think they are wholeheartedly choosing his way. Not much else matters. They will to follow and are locked out.