luvluv

Very true.

ex-preacher

You are absolutely correct NWT. Christians (and other theists) constantly move the goalposts to redefine the mysterious workings of their god. Since 9/11, I have heard many Christians state that they are trusting God to keep them safe from terrorism. This naturally raises the question "Where was God on 9/11?" Asleep on the job?

Question for luvluv and any other theist: Is there any event you can imagine which is so horrific that it would convince that God doesn't exist?

luvluv

First off, good to see ya. Where ya been?

Secondly, not off the top of my head. Got any examples?

For what it's worth, I think God could protect Christians from terrorism but I certainly don't think it's a guarantee. I should think that the Crucifixion should be enough to convince some Christians that sometimes God allows the innocent to suffer. Further, I think the notion is counter-productive on many levels. No need to deal with the problem of fundamentalism, because God will protect us. No need to look into possibly shady US foreign policy, because God will protect us. Etc, etc.

There was a famous Christian who believed that unearned suffering is redemptive when the suffering is undertaken willingly (solidarity movements and the like). I happen to believe that this is the case sometimes. I won't mention that particular Christians name, because I know most of you are tired of hearing it from me.

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

ex-preacher

Good to see you too. I've been to Colorado with my family - Steamboat Springs and Colorado Springs. A bit dry, but great. Took the train up Pike's Peak and drove through the lovely Garden of the Gods. Have you ever been there?


<strong> My point precisely. Anything you might think of - diseases, natural disasters, tragedies of all sort - has already happened and believers of stripes have been able to reconcile these terrible events with the kindness of their particular deity.

It's a waste of time to argue with individuals who have already decided that anything that happens somehow proves that their God is real. Very frustrating.

zamboniavenger

I don't understand why christians pray(for protection, divine intervention, or anything else for that matter). First, can you really change the mind of an immutable, omni max god that already knows both what you are going to pray about, and what he's going to do about that particular situation? If you actually believe that you can change the mind of God, don't you deny his awesome power, etc? If you don't believe you can change his mind or whatever, then why bother? You're just along for the ride, I suppose. Forgive me if this is nothing new, but I've never had that question satisfactorily answered.

Jobar

A very good topic, I think- but it would be more appropriate in MRD.

BibleBelted

It is good to hear this from a Christian. I wish more shared your attitude on this. To me, religious fundamentalism of any variety carries with it the potential of horrible abuse. My own US Senator, James Inhofe, made a speech from the floor of the Senate echoing what Jerry Falwell said about "spiritual doors being opened" that made god decide to allow the attack on the WTC. His view would appear to be that if we would just get back to persecuting gays and be more rah-rah in our support of Israel we'll all have a wonderful xmas.
He's also done a couple of interviews with Endtimes.com, a fringe-crazy eschatology website, where he's said even goofier things.

Has any xian spokesman had anything to say about this? No, and why not?
Maybe because they know there is no way to expose the fundamentalist doctrinal problems without uncovering some of their own.

LMAO! Be thankful for small favors. Aren't you glad the bible never explicitly states thats 2+2=5?
If it did, we would be forced to argue with Jesus Freak about that, too!

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: BibleBelted ]</p>

Grizzly

Your last paragraph startled me. I surely hope that you are just a young person who has yet to be educated. The idea that averages of little use because you can misapply them is a strange argument.

My head now hurts. I have to go lie down now....

RogerLeeCooke

But Christians are happy to quote statistics when they can. Last year I was bombarded by e-mails from enthusiastic Christians telling me that statistical research had proved that prayer heals. I responded by quoting CS Lewis back at them: No Christian could possibly agree to participate in such a study because of the text, "Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test." (Quoted by Jesus during the famous temptation in the wilderness.) Lewis went on to say that, even if a Christian did blasphemously agree to do this, the result would not be prayer. When the purpose of your prayer is to find out what will happen, it isn't real prayer. You have no reason to pray for people in group A to get well rather than group B.

Hobbs

I haven't spent much time here recently, so I haven't seen any of Jesus Freak's other 70 posts, but based on this one, I gotta think that he's an atheist troll making fun of theist's "reasoning." It's just so bad on so many levels, I have to hope no one actually reasons (and I use the term 'reasons' very loosely here) that way. If you are a troll, I applaud you for a very well constructed parody. (If you aren't, well, ...)