Freethought & Rationalism Archive

elwoodblues · 01-05-2003, 07:18 PM

Quote:

well, how about everyone goes and reads Anthem.

A good idea. If you don't get anything out of Anthem, don't bother with Rand. It's extremely short and simply written, so you're not investing much in the effort.

RED DAVE · 01-05-2003, 08:07 PM

Yes, I gave the hyperlink to Anthem. And anyone who is so inclined should read it. But to state:

[/QUOTE]

Quote:

It's . . . simply written, so you're not investing much in the effort.

is a little weird.

Consider: paragraph 1, page 1.

Quote:

It is a sin to write this. It is a sin to think words no others think and to put them down upon a paper no others are to see. It is base and evil. It is as if we were speaking alone to no ears but our own. And we know well that there is no transgression blacker than to do or think alone. We have broken the laws. The laws say that men may not write unless the Council of Vocations bid them so. May we be forgiven!

May we be forgiven, indeed, if we write like this. I wrote stories like this in high school. When I got to Freshman English (NYU, 1960), I was taught better.

(In case you're dying to know how it comes out, here are the closing words of this deathless epic.)

Quote:

And here, over the portals of my fort, I shall cut in the stone the word which is to be my beacon and my banner. The word which will not die, should we all perish in battle. The word which can never die on this earth, for it is the heart of it and the meaning and the glory.

The sacred word:

EGO

It just don't get any better than that!

RED DAVE

elwoodblues · 01-05-2003, 09:17 PM

Quote:

May we be forgiven, indeed, if we write like this. I wrote stories like this in high school. When I got to Freshman English (NYU, 1960), I was taught better.

English wasn't Rand's first language, obviously. She was still learning it when she wrote Anthem, and it shows in the style (which is unique, if simplistic). I don't know many books written by Russian authors in the middle of learning English.

Anyways, the style of the writing should be different, odd. It's written as a diary of someone who's never written before, an almost psychotically conflicted individual. If it sounded like Dickens it just wouldn't seem right. And it'd lose a lot of the sleek simplicity that is it's main redeeming feature.

RED DAVE · 01-05-2003, 09:40 PM

You can't have it both ways on Rand's writing. Either her style in Anthem results from her poor English, or its a deliberate choice (or she just wrote that way).

Consider the following:

AYN RAND

Born - 1905
Emigrates to US - 1926
Night of January the 16th - 1932
[We the Living - 1936
Anthem - 1937
The Fountainhead - begun ca. 1938

JOSEPH CONRAD

Born - 1857
Emigrates to England - 1878
Almayer's Folly - 1889

So, Rand had plenty of time to learn English: she had published two previous books. And at least one other writer (whose native tongue was Polish) had done something similar to what Rand did and had mastered English.

While there is some justification for her style, given the type of book she was writing, the fact is that the style in Anthem, to me, isn't all that different from Atlas Shrugged. Read Zamiatyn's We to see what a great writer could do with the same situation.

RED DAVE

RED DAVE · 01-06-2003, 04:36 AM

I searched around and found several exceprts from Atlas Shrugged. Here's one that says it all:

Quote:

She was looking up at the face of a man who knelt by her side, and she knew that in all the years behind her, this was what she would have given her life to see: a face that bore no mark of pain or fear or guilt. The shape of his mouth was pride, and more: it was as if he took pride in being proud. The angular planes of his cheeks made her think of arrogance, of tension, of scorn -- yet the face had none of these qualities, it had their final sum: a look of serene determination and of certainty, and the look of a ruthless innocence which would not seek forgiveness or grant it. It was a face that had nothing to hide or escape, a face with no fear of seeing or being seen, so that the first thing she grasped about him was the intense perceptiveness of his eyes -- he looked as if the faculty of sight were his best-loved tool and its exercise were a limitless, joyous adventure, as if his eyes imparted a superlative value to himself and to the world -- to himself for his ability to see, to the world for being a place so eagerly worth being seen. It seemed to her for a moment that she was in the presence of a being who was pure consciousness -- yet she had never been so aware of a man's body. The light cloth of his shirt seemed to stress, rather than hide, the structure of his figure, his skin was suntanned, his body had the hardness, the gaunt, tensile strength, the clean precision of a foundry casting, he looked as if he were poured out of metal, but some dimmed, soft-lustered metal, like an aluminum-copper alloy, the color of his skin blending with the chestnut-brown of his hair, the loose strands of the hair shading from brown to gold in the sun, and his eyes completing the colors, as the one part of the casting left undimmed and hardly lustrous: his eyes were the deep, dark green of light glinting on metal. He was looking down at her with the faint trace of a smile, and it was not a look of discovery, but of familiar contemplation -- as if he, too, were seeing the long-expected and the never-doubted.

I mean a face that bore no mark of pain or fear or guilt and his body had the hardness, the gaunt, tensile strength, the clean precision of a foundry casting.

Who needs Shakespeare or Danielle Steele when you can have this, and it's longer than Bible. Song of Songs anyone?

RED DAVE

Ronin · 01-06-2003, 04:59 AM

So ~ you didn't even catch an ounce of wood, Red Dave?

RED DAVE · 01-06-2003, 05:06 AM

Quote:

So ~ you didn't even catch an ounce of wood, Red Dave?

I'm not getting the reference here.

RED DAVE

Ronin · 01-06-2003, 05:11 AM

~ 'nuff said.

99Percent · 01-06-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RED DAVE
I searched around and found several exceprts from Atlas Shrugged. Here's one that says it all:

I mean a face that bore no mark of pain or fear or guilt and his body had the hardness, the gaunt, tensile strength, the clean precision of a foundry casting.

Who needs Shakespeare or Danielle Steele when you can have this, and it's longer than Bible. Song of Songs anyone?

RED DAVE

Actually I had recently thought of what would be the image of someone completely the opposite of Christ. It would be someone just as described in your quote, a face that bore no mark of pain or fear or guilt. I very proudful face even an arrogant looking, one of pure consciousness instead of pure feelings.

Zar · 01-06-2003, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent
Actually I had recently thought of what would be the image of someone completely the opposite of Christ. It would be someone just as described in your quote, a face that bore no mark of pain or fear or guilt. I very proudful face even an arrogant looking, one of pure consciousness instead of pure feelings.

Is this really how you think about and process things on this subject? You envision a person with a "proudful" face? (Maybe you mean "prideful"?) A face of "pure" consciousness, instead of "pure feelings"? So, then, Christ was not conscious? And, I guess a human consciousness devoid of feeling is not only possible but desirable? If not, what do you mean by "pure"? From whence do you divine these insights?

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01-05-2003, 09:40 PM	#134
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	You can't have it both ways on Rand's writing. Either her style in Anthem results from her poor English, or its a deliberate choice (or she just wrote that way). Consider the following: AYN RAND Born - 1905 Emigrates to US - 1926 Night of January the 16th - 1932 [We the Living - 1936 Anthem - 1937 The Fountainhead - begun ca. 1938 JOSEPH CONRAD Born - 1857 Emigrates to England - 1878 Almayer's Folly - 1889 So, Rand had plenty of time to learn English: she had published two previous books. And at least one other writer (whose native tongue was Polish) had done something similar to what Rand did and had mastered English. While there is some justification for her style, given the type of book she was writing, the fact is that the style in Anthem, to me, isn't all that different from Atlas Shrugged. Read Zamiatyn's We to see what a great writer could do with the same situation. RED DAVE

01-06-2003, 04:59 AM	#136
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	So ~ you didn't even catch an ounce of wood, Red Dave?

01-06-2003, 05:11 AM	#138
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	~ 'nuff said.

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