Freethought & Rationalism Archive

12-01-2002, 10:10 PM

"Belief in God based on Pascal's Wager is like someone putting a gun to your head and telling you to worship God. An action under such duress isn't a free choice. In other words, they believe because they fear Hell."

My reply : Maybe. After all, faith in Christianity is simply based on fear.

"And I would win my wager if I went to Hell, because the Christian God is a mass genocidal maniac, who allows priests to rape altar boys. There is no way I want to spend eternity near that deity. "

My reply : Your choice, I have nothing to say about that, however your choice alone doesn't potray others' choice in the matter.

winstonjen · 12-01-2002, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
[QBMy reply : Your choice, I have nothing to say about that, however your choice alone doesn't potray others' choice in the matter.[/QB]

Perhaps you may change your mind if you lived with Charlie Manson. Or Timothy McVeigh (before his execution). Or Osama bin Laden. Or any of the murderous Popes.

12-01-2002, 10:22 PM

"Perhaps you may change your mind if you lived with Charlie Manson. Or Timothy McVeigh (before his execution). Or Osama bin Laden. Or any of the murderous Popes. "

My reply : My faith is mine alone to keep and strenghten, I will not allow others to influence me - whether it is an Angel, a Devil or another human. I have a free will and it is mine to use to choose my own path which I will walk.

If you choose to let them influence you in thinking there is no God and keeping faith is useless, I will not say anything about it since it is your choice.

echidna · 12-01-2002, 11:21 PM

Seraphim, it�s a rare person indeed who comes here arguing the merits of Pascal�s Wager. However to me it seems entirely plausible to live one�s life well whether one takes the wager or not. Taking the wager however does tend to reduce one�s entire intellectual credibility down to �well, just in case �� Different outlooks for different people AFAICS.

Winstonjen, skimming the thread, it would seem to me that your OP has been somewhat derailed (not that I�m any kind of saint in this regard). Are you posing a somewhat existentialist outlook on hope ?

I think I can identify with the contentedness of living in the moment, or to coin a phrase of the Dalai Lama, happy for no good reason. While we all keep an eye on the future, to base one�s entire life on hope, to me is to be living too much in the future. We need secure a future to ensure that these moments continue, but to rely too heavily on hope, especially misplaced, seems unnecessary.

Mind you, existentialism has critics-a-plenty for the lack of hope and perceived nihilism which it presents. Empowerment to the individual is one of its staunchest claims, and ironically one I believe highly valued by seraphim as well.

12-01-2002, 11:30 PM

"Seraphim, it’s a rare person indeed who comes here arguing the merits of Pascal’s Wager. However to me it seems entirely plausible to live one’s life well whether one takes the wager or not. Taking the wager however does tend to reduce one’s entire intellectual credibility down to “well, just in case …” Different outlooks for different people AFAICS. "

My reply : I simply pointing out that people attend to believe in God and choose to have hope rather than throw it away, simply because to have something is better than to have nothing.

"Mind you, existentialism has critics-a-plenty for the lack of hope and perceived nihilism which it presents. Empowerment to the individual is one of its staunchest claims, and ironically one I believe highly valued by seraphim as well. "

My reply : What I believe is simple - don't bother about the future, it will take care of itself IF we take care our actions in presence times. As for having hope and faith, keeping our mind open is just as good as anything else.

Afterall, if there is no life after death, should we worry about it? We should be death by then to worry, no?

winstonjen · 12-02-2002, 01:58 AM

I can respect your views, but please understand that there are some people who would raise people's hopes just to dash them to pieces.

Gamaliel · 12-02-2002, 05:58 AM

WJ, what is your motivation not to commit suicide? G

Mageth · 12-02-2002, 06:50 AM

First Pascal's wager, now "atheism leads to suicide"; what's next, "no atheists in foxholes"?

Mageth · 12-02-2002, 06:57 AM

Fourthly, Having any hope IS better than none. It will give you something to strife for rather than sitting like something waiting to decompose.

In answer to the above, and perhaps also to the suicide issue, one can have goals to strive for, things that one can accomplish with one's own effort, that don't require placing hope in the myth of one's choice.

It would seem to me that the person who places all hope in an afterlife is more likely to sit around waiting to decompose than someone with goals and plans to reach those goals.

winstonjen · 12-02-2002, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
<strong>WJ, what is your motivation not to commit suicide?</strong>

I am content with my life. That is all I want.

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12-01-2002, 10:10 PM	#11
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"Belief in God based on Pascal's Wager is like someone putting a gun to your head and telling you to worship God. An action under such duress isn't a free choice. In other words, they believe because they fear Hell." My reply : Maybe. After all, faith in Christianity is simply based on fear. "And I would win my wager if I went to Hell, because the Christian God is a mass genocidal maniac, who allows priests to rape altar boys. There is no way I want to spend eternity near that deity. " My reply : Your choice, I have nothing to say about that, however your choice alone doesn't potray others' choice in the matter.

12-01-2002, 10:22 PM	#13
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"Perhaps you may change your mind if you lived with Charlie Manson. Or Timothy McVeigh (before his execution). Or Osama bin Laden. Or any of the murderous Popes. " My reply : My faith is mine alone to keep and strenghten, I will not allow others to influence me - whether it is an Angel, a Devil or another human. I have a free will and it is mine to use to choose my own path which I will walk. If you choose to let them influence you in thinking there is no God and keeping faith is useless, I will not say anything about it since it is your choice.

12-01-2002, 11:21 PM	#14
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Seraphim, it�s a rare person indeed who comes here arguing the merits of Pascal�s Wager. However to me it seems entirely plausible to live one�s life well whether one takes the wager or not. Taking the wager however does tend to reduce one�s entire intellectual credibility down to �well, just in case �� Different outlooks for different people AFAICS. Winstonjen, skimming the thread, it would seem to me that your OP has been somewhat derailed (not that I�m any kind of saint in this regard). Are you posing a somewhat existentialist outlook on hope ? I think I can identify with the contentedness of living in the moment, or to coin a phrase of the Dalai Lama, happy for no good reason. While we all keep an eye on the future, to base one�s entire life on hope, to me is to be living too much in the future. We need secure a future to ensure that these moments continue, but to rely too heavily on hope, especially misplaced, seems unnecessary. Mind you, existentialism has critics-a-plenty for the lack of hope and perceived nihilism which it presents. Empowerment to the individual is one of its staunchest claims, and ironically one I believe highly valued by seraphim as well.

12-01-2002, 11:30 PM	#15
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"Seraphim, it’s a rare person indeed who comes here arguing the merits of Pascal’s Wager. However to me it seems entirely plausible to live one’s life well whether one takes the wager or not. Taking the wager however does tend to reduce one’s entire intellectual credibility down to “well, just in case …” Different outlooks for different people AFAICS. " My reply : I simply pointing out that people attend to believe in God and choose to have hope rather than throw it away, simply because to have something is better than to have nothing. "Mind you, existentialism has critics-a-plenty for the lack of hope and perceived nihilism which it presents. Empowerment to the individual is one of its staunchest claims, and ironically one I believe highly valued by seraphim as well. " My reply : What I believe is simple - don't bother about the future, it will take care of itself IF we take care our actions in presence times. As for having hope and faith, keeping our mind open is just as good as anything else. Afterall, if there is no life after death, should we worry about it? We should be death by then to worry, no?

12-02-2002, 01:58 AM	#16
winstonjen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,425	I can respect your views, but please understand that there are some people who would raise people's hopes just to dash them to pieces.

12-02-2002, 05:58 AM	#17
Gamaliel Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: FL Posts: 13	WJ, what is your motivation not to commit suicide? G

12-02-2002, 06:50 AM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	First Pascal's wager, now "atheism leads to suicide"; what's next, "no atheists in foxholes"?

12-02-2002, 06:57 AM	#19
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Fourthly, Having any hope IS better than none. It will give you something to strife for rather than sitting like something waiting to decompose. In answer to the above, and perhaps also to the suicide issue, one can have goals to strive for, things that one can accomplish with one's own effort, that don't require placing hope in the myth of one's choice. It would seem to me that the person who places all hope in an afterlife is more likely to sit around waiting to decompose than someone with goals and plans to reach those goals.

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